Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So how long will Ben last this time?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • In general I feel people take the wrong lessons from medieval history. "For a thousand years, Christians were this way, and Muslims were that way,"--as if that says something meaningful about Christianity, or Islam. The belief system governing Catholic Europe wasn't Christianity so much as Christianity grafted onto Greco-Roman civilization, then smushed together with Germanic tribal law and left to stew for a couple of centuries. Likewise the Muslims, at the peak of their flourishing, weren't always all that strictly Muslim; the caliphs got drunk as hell and wrote poems about diddling little boys.

    The real lesson of the Middle Ages is that, when people have their backs against the wall, they tend to get vicious. Catholic Europe spent several centuries getting invaded, assimilating the invaders, fighting off different invaders, invading and oppressing some other people during a lull, then back to getting invaded, assimilating, and hey look at the time, guess we'd better reform this embarrassing papacy, hmm, surfeit of heavily armed and barely civilized men, let's give 'em something to do, CRUSADES! Surprisingly, this lifestyle did not yield cultured poets and philosophers.

    Meanwhile, in Muslim Spain, things were peachy. The native Christians were shoehorned into some northern mountains, and the Franks had not done well at invading over the Pyrenees. So they relaxed, got a nice arts scene going, occasionally raided the Christians and demanded tribute . . . until a sudden domestic crisis caused the collapse of the caliphate. Spain splintered into dozens of little kingdoms, some of them ruled by Jews or Christians. This did not sit well with the Muslims, who whistled for some violent, reactionary zealots from North Africa. When those didn't do so hot, they whistled for a somewhat worse pack of zealots from the same source. Still they got pushed back; finally Ferdinand and Isabella married, neatly unifying the Christians, and presently taught the Muslims what violent, reactionary zealotry was really all about.

    Meanwhile, with the Muslim threat from the west diminished and no Vikings, Magyars, Lombards, etc. to worry about, the rest of Europe had finally calmed down enough to start the Renaissance. Still had Turks on the horizon--not to mention spectacular internal strife--but we gradually got more civilized from there. Things really took off around the time the Turks started rolling back. Then came the Enlightenment, when various philosophers with enormous grudges against the RCC and a passing intellectual interest in Islam largely invented the narrative we've been spouting with few variations ever since.

    A century after that, Islam became so feeble as to become briefly fashionable in an Orientalist craze, in much the same way we invented Pastoralism once actual bucolic life was largely a relic of the past. A century after that, it was so feeble that we were able to hand out pieces of the Ottoman Empire like party favors after WWI. Another century of intercultural pimp-smacking later, much of the Middle East is stuck in a mentality we describe, with a shudder, as "medieval." Savage, insular, and proud of its own ignorance.

    But we don't learn the obvious lesson from it.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

    Comment


    • But we don't learn the obvious lesson from it.
      Well, some, Spengler et al have been writing about it for a long time. We shall see who is right. Personally, I'm on Spengler's side would rather side with the side that actually believes something and willing to fight for it. I don't see secular society as offering much of that for anyone.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Elok View Post
        In general I feel people take the wrong lessons from medieval history. "For a thousand years, Christians were this way, and Muslims were that way,"--as if that says something meaningful about Christianity, or Islam. The belief system governing Catholic Europe wasn't Christianity so much as Christianity grafted onto Greco-Roman civilization, then smushed together with Germanic tribal law and left to stew for a couple of centuries. Likewise the Muslims, at the peak of their flourishing, weren't always all that strictly Muslim; the caliphs got drunk as hell and wrote poems about diddling little boys.

        The real lesson of the Middle Ages is that, when people have their backs against the wall, they tend to get vicious. Catholic Europe spent several centuries getting invaded, assimilating the invaders, fighting off different invaders, invading and oppressing some other people during a lull, then back to getting invaded, assimilating, and hey look at the time, guess we'd better reform this embarrassing papacy, hmm, surfeit of heavily armed and barely civilized men, let's give 'em something to do, CRUSADES! Surprisingly, this lifestyle did not yield cultured poets and philosophers.

        Meanwhile, in Muslim Spain, things were peachy. The native Christians were shoehorned into some northern mountains, and the Franks had not done well at invading over the Pyrenees. So they relaxed, got a nice arts scene going, occasionally raided the Christians and demanded tribute . . . until a sudden domestic crisis caused the collapse of the caliphate. Spain splintered into dozens of little kingdoms, some of them ruled by Jews or Christians. This did not sit well with the Muslims, who whistled for some violent, reactionary zealots from North Africa. When those didn't do so hot, they whistled for a somewhat worse pack of zealots from the same source. Still they got pushed back; finally Ferdinand and Isabella married, neatly unifying the Christians, and presently taught the Muslims what violent, reactionary zealotry was really all about.

        Meanwhile, with the Muslim threat from the west diminished and no Vikings, Magyars, Lombards, etc. to worry about, the rest of Europe had finally calmed down enough to start the Renaissance. Still had Turks on the horizon--not to mention spectacular internal strife--but we gradually got more civilized from there. Things really took off around the time the Turks started rolling back. Then came the Enlightenment, when various philosophers with enormous grudges against the RCC and a passing intellectual interest in Islam largely invented the narrative we've been spouting with few variations ever since.

        A century after that, Islam became so feeble as to become briefly fashionable in an Orientalist craze, in much the same way we invented Pastoralism once actual bucolic life was largely a relic of the past. A century after that, it was so feeble that we were able to hand out pieces of the Ottoman Empire like party favors after WWI. Another century of intercultural pimp-smacking later, much of the Middle East is stuck in a mentality we describe, with a shudder, as "medieval." Savage, insular, and proud of its own ignorance.

        But we don't learn the obvious lesson from it.
        Elok is not a nerd.

        A nice essay with out any name calling.

        Comment


        • An accomodating narrative and completely self serving.

          The middle east had large periods of time where it was far more civilized than many other regions. And not too far ago.
          Also the influence of the "greco-roman" civilization was far more pronounced in Syria for example than large parts of europe.

          This all changed and continue to change after a series of self serving invasions, toppling governments and stealing resources with examplery examples the british in Iran and the americas who finally virtually destroyed everything and rightously gained the first place in world's biggest **** ups.

          Also western Europe never really needed "the turks" to start killing eachother or live in peace.

          After napoleon's revolution and some tiny bad things that happened every revolution was deemed "demonic". That includeded revolutions within the ottoman empire. No matter if it was muslim or not.

          The englightment came about not because of some "prolonged peace period away from muslims"
          But for other things (that are in the books) and finally put the coffin in christian dominated europe that up to it was far more savage (or at least on par) with virtually every muslim country there was (certaintly far more worse in the dark ages, something that Byzantium or the Ottoman empire never had - alas neither had the englithment)
          Last edited by Bereta_Eder; January 14, 2016, 03:54.

          Comment


          • I think (not sure) that the middle east was already aflame with war when Islam started.

            If my recollection serves me correctly a series of major wars started in the 6th century when Ethiopia intervened in Yemen to protect Christians from persecution by the Judaic government. Justinian of Byzantium encouraged the Ethiopian intervention. Persia then intervened in Yemen against the Ethiopians. Then the Byzantines joined in, fighting the Persians.

            The Persians captured Egypt from byzantium. The byzantines recaptured Egypt.

            Meanwhile Islam was born and rose up to drive the Ethiopians from the Arabian peninsular. Conquered Egypt and Syria from the Byzantines and overran Persia.

            Edit.
            I am not providing links. If you want links you can go visit your local bordello.

            Comment


            • The Ottoman Empire was forged for two reasons, one to conquer Constantinople, and two to conquer Rome. It was devoted, like all empires, to eternal war. The Empire was still trying to take Europe in the 20th century. It was never peaceful. It shouldn't surprise anyone that non-Muslims would want to destroy the Ottoman Empire.
              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Braindead View Post
                Edit.
                I am not providing links. If you want links you can go visit your local bordello.
                The main proponent of civility using foul language.
                How trite.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
                  The Ottoman Empire was forged for two reasons, one to conquer Constantinople, and two to conquer Rome. It was devoted, like all empires, to eternal war. The Empire was still trying to take Europe in the 20th century. It was never peaceful. It shouldn't surprise anyone that non-Muslims would want to destroy the Ottoman Empire.
                  Please don't talk utter bollocks all the time. You know that for long periods various Christian nations in Europe allied with the Ottomans against other Christian nations right? Trying to take Europe in the 20th century? That's Ben Kenobi levels of ridiculous, nonsensical revised history bull****.

                  Please either read a book or shut the **** up.

                  Comment




                  • My second cousin who is 17 posted something on facebook about Americans being the real terrorists. I was obviously disturbed so I gave him some education. My sister, who is liberal, and even more insane than Patty Cakes, got onto me about trying to brainwash him or whatever.

                    How could he fall for Islamic propaganda like that? Because of the school system. The conquest of the Americas is treated as an evil deed comparable only to the Holocaust, while the brutal Muslim conquests are treated as glory for brown people and their Muslim God.
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                      Please don't talk utter bollocks all the time. You know that for long periods various Christian nations in Europe allied with the Ottomans against other Christian nations right? Trying to take Europe in the 20th century? That's Ben Kenobi levels of ridiculous, nonsensical revised history bull****.

                      Please either read a book or shut the **** up.
                      Totally irrelevant.
                      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by giblets View Post
                        In 1492 Granada had been controlled by Muslims for over 700 years. How long do you have to control something before it stops being "Christian land"?
                        What you ignore is that most of the population in those areas remained Christian despite having rulers who were muslim.
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                        Comment


                        • most of the population in southern spain were muslim until at least the 15th century. the muslims, together with the jews, were then forced to convert or expelled in the late 15th and early 16th centuries.
                          "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                          "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
                            Totally irrelevant.
                            You telling complete lies about history is irrelevant? Well yes, if you have no interest in honesty then I guess it would be.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kidicious View Post

                              My second cousin who is 17 posted something on facebook about Americans being the real terrorists. I was obviously disturbed so I gave him some education. My sister, who is liberal, and even more insane than Patty Cakes, got onto me about trying to brainwash him or whatever.
                              i'm not surprised your family thinks you're full of **** as well.
                              "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                              "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                                You telling complete lies about history is irrelevant? Well yes, if you have no interest in honesty then I guess it would be.
                                Where did I say Ottoman's didn't have European allies ? Who is lying?
                                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X