The US War on Blacks!

[Aeson]

But what he said in this specific instance was not racist in the slightest. I would like to hear you admit that Aeson.

It was racist. The statistics themselves are fundamentally racist, as they delineate between segments of the population based on race rather than applicable factors. He then took those statistics and warped it into a phrase which not even the statistics support, because he phrased it so horribly wrong.

"A black man has far more to fear from another black person than they do from any white person."

So are you claiming that ANY WHITE PERSON is less dangerous to blacks than a black person?

[Patroklos]

What you are missing is its a subset of blacks, so how can it be an indictment of blacks in total? You guys can't possible be this stupid. There is nothing wrong with saying a subset of blacks are violent and prey upon the rest of their community. There is no judgement in that observed and demonstrable fact as to why, only the statment that there is.

You are welcome to assign what you want regarding Ben's ulterior motives might be, the statement itself is just an uncomfortable truth.

@Aeson: Satistically, yes. Even more so because criminals are far more likely to target their own race and one with a higher crime rate and who is also a minority are going to stand out in numbers of same race crimes committed. Also, statistically, any person you meet is far more likely to be a no threat to you regardless of race, but again you are far more likely to be victimized by your own if that does indeed happen to you

You can parse it however you want but his statement is true, you are assigning hidden motives that do not exist in the statement he made. He has given you cause to do so elsewhere and over time but the fact remains the statement is sound.

[I AM MOBIUS]

It's not a subset of blacks, the subset he was referring to are the blacks...

That you stubbornly choose to believe otherwise perhaps betrays your own attitude towards blacks...?

You yourself admit he has given Aeson cause elsewhere and he clearly profited from that leniency. This was simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Patroklos]

I don't give a **** about Ben, I care about a board that group things away a simply statistical truth.

And no, the post in question never says all blacks are violent, you are assuming the subset mentioned is all black people when the intent is obvious the subset is whatever black people victimize other black people. As Bezerker said he explicitly identifies some subset of blacks as the primary victims, not as perpetrators. Do you honestly think Ben cares about murders killing other murders? Would he explicitly call out blacks as victims if he wasn't sympathetic to that subset? His point in this thread isn't served unless the victims are to be empathized with.

[Aeson]

What you are missing is its a subset of blacks, so how can it be an indictment of blacks in total?

Not "a subset of blacks". He said, "a subset of the population", which is actually better ... if he hadn't then gone on to define that subset of the population with his use of "black person".

If he did say "a subset of blacks", that would also be racist, because he was describing the "problem in Chicago". The problem is not just blacks who are violent, and he was singling out "one specific subset" as the entire root of the problem. Pretending violence in Chicago is simply a problem with a subset of blacks is racist. There are plenty of non-blacks who are also part of that problem. Not to mention guns and poverty really are factors as well. But Ben wants to heap all the blame on black people.

"Exactly. That's the problem in Chicago. It's not poverty - it's not population density. It's not guns. It's the culture of one specific subset of the population that prefers to engage in violence."

There is nothing wrong with saying a subset of blacks are violent and prey upon the rest of their community. There is no judgement in that observed and demonstrable fact as to why, only the statment that there is.

It is wrong to say that that is the entirety of the problem in Chicago. The statistics do not back up the claim. As such it's a claim which heaps blame disproportionately upon a specific group based on their race.

"A black man has far more to fear from another black person than they do from any white person."

That sentence is horribly racist. It places ANY WHITE PERSON (thus the entire set of white people) above a generalized black person.

[I AM MOBIUS]

I don't give a **** about Ben, I care about a board that group things away a simply statistical truth.

And no, the post in question never says all blacks are violent, you are assuming the subset mentioned is all black people when the intent is obvious the subset is whatever black people victimize other black people. As Bezerker said he explicitly identifies some subset of blacks as the primary victims, not as perpetrators. Do you honestly think Ben cares about murders killing other murders? Would he explicitly call out blacks as victims if he wasn't sympathetic to that subset? His point in this thread isn't served unless the victims are to be empathized with.

I do honestly wonder why you're arguing such a losing corner...?

Your average non racist person would read those statements and instantly decide they're racist. It is literally a black and white, open and shut case, if you'll excuse the pun.

What do you hope to gain defending a known racist saying racist things?

[Patroklos]

As you are making more and more clear apparently there is no point.

Obviously your average poster does not read that statement as you believe it should be as there are at least three here who didn't.

[Kidlicious]

So... Toronto (2.6 million) has a substantial black population, and has had 23 murders this year. Chicago (2.7 million)has a substantial black population, and has 189 murders this year.
Blackhawks won - the Leafs suck. I don't think that is the reason... anyone want to take a shot at what I think the real difference is? If you rifle through my past posts, I bet you'll be right on target.

The point that BK should have made is that people make too much out of white on black violence. People don't claim that black people hate black people when they see black on black violence, even though it's more prevalent.

BK, if you're reading this take a note. Although I'm a little uncomfortable about telling you not to sound racist, because you probably are. On the other hand I think most people are a little.

[I AM MOBIUS]

As you are making more and more clear apparently there is no point.

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Obviously your average poster does not read that statement as you believe it should be as there are at least three here who didn't.

No, your average poster does. How many posters are there still active on poly and how many have contributed since Ben's banning?

So far, only four people (a significant minority and therefore not 'the average') have taken issue with whether what Ben said was racist or not...

I will go further and state that the four that have taken issue, I would consider have a history of having a rather laissez-faire attitude towards racism themselves...

[I AM MOBIUS]

As for the severity of Ben's banning, I do tend to agree that it is a little harsh in isolation...

However, the very first thing he was made aware of when he returned from his last ban, was that the next ban would be for six months for a similar offence.

He knew the consequences: how can you then argue that it is unfair to punish him for the length of time already promised?

[Kidlicious]

"have a history of having a rather laissez-faire attitude towards racism"
-Moby

You mean they aren't trolls, like you?

[I AM MOBIUS]

Are you saying they're racist?

[rah]

I think that if anyone else had said that comment, at worst it would have been a warning. It was really walking the fine line.

But it was Ben. Who has a history and was warned. So he took it as a life time achievement award. I's sure it was still a hard choice for Aeson. I always hated those choices. Free speech and all that stuff. I still believe that all discussions can lead to good. But at some point you have to draw the line and Ben loved pushing it so he could claim victim status. He won, he's a victim. Good riddance. And I can appreciate the thought Aeson put into it. You're doing a good job maintaining this place, and I hope people can respect that. Especially those like Berz, who while is frequently in the minority, still makes positive contributions to discussions.

[Hauldren Collider]

The fact that you don't see why what he said is racist, says more about how you see the importance of the race discussion than it does about the weight of Ben's words. Yes there is a disproportionate amount of black on black crime. Why do you think that is? Do you think that blacks are just more genetically predisposed to commit violence than whites?

I don't think for a second that you think that, because you're not a racist, and what's more the question is obviously a ridiculous and stupid one. So why is it higher? Is it because black people have an inferior culture that leads to higher rates of violence? Again I'd assume you'd also think that was a stupid and offensive question, because it is.

That right there is the difference between you and Ben, because he quite openly accepts at least one of those questions as true rather than stupid, racist and offensive.

What annoys me about you, is that you don't do the simple mental calculations that would make the race problem in America blindly obvious to you, like it is to most other people. There aren't any huge confusing questions over why there is a racial divide in the US, the reasons are obvious to anyone who has ever taken the time to open a history book.

Oh shut up Kentonio. Spare me your indignant lectures over nothing at all

EDIT: Look, I have my opinions about why black crime is so high, and yes, I do think culture is one of many components of it. It would almost have to be. And no, ffs, I don't think genetics has anything to do with it. Also, don't accuse me of not thinking there's a race problem.

[Ben Kenobl]

Banned, who said I was banned?

The reports of my banning have been greatly exaggerated.