Why has America stopped winning wars?

[Ben Kenobi]

Korean War - Draw between U.S./China

Tactical loss, strategic victory for the US. US gained a large, democratic ally that has been a bulwark of stability. N. Korea is a ****hole. 1:0 for the US.

Vietnam War - Draw Between U.S. and Socialist Republic of Vietnam along with its backers in USSR and China, rapidly followed by Victory for the SRV over the RoV in 1975

I'd consider Vietnam to be a tactical, and strategic loss for the United States. Longterm goal has been the massive increase in Chinese and Communist influence over the region. So that's 1:1

Gulf War - Victory for the U.S. led coalition

Right now? it's a tactical victory - strategic loss for the US. So I'd say that the Gulf war was another loss overall for the US. 1:2.

Afghanistan - Draw/Pyrrhic victory for the U.S.

So far, Afghanistan is a win for the US. 2:2.

Iraq - Draw/Pyrrhic victory for the U.S.

I think the results have been 2:2 since the Second world war. Loss in Vietnam and loss - so far in Iraq. But that could quite easily change. They beat ISIS that would turn Iraq into a strategic win for the US.

[Ben Kenobi]

Obama withdrawal? That was Bush who negotiated our withdrawal

Uh... No. You need to check your stuff, Berz. Obama withdrew the troops in 2012 with a large drawdown because that was his campaign promise.

Iraq should never have existed as a political entity

Something the US had to decide when they were invading Kuwait. Stand up for Kuwait or stand out of it. Iraq was a political entity. The US had no role it it's formation.

[Kidlicious]

"I'd consider Vietnam to be a tactical, and strategic loss for the United States. Longterm goal has been the massive increase in Chinese and Communist influence over the region. So that's 1:1"
-BK

Actually in the long term Vietnam and the US are more allies than China and Vietnam, because of the potential of Chinese military aggression, but in the near term, yeah China had more influence. That whole thing only served the interest of th capitalists, not America.

[Kidlicious]

JM

[C0ckney]

korn, i'm afraid the way you look at those wars doesn't make sense. if you applied the same standard to just about every colonial conflict in africa and asia then you would say that the european powers won almost every time. this is clearly absurd. one must consider the political results when analysing a conflict.

the point about a 'pyrrhic victor' is that pyrrhus won his battles but ultimately lost his wars, couldn't hold on to his conquests and ended up hacked to death at argos.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually in the long term Vietnam and the US are more allies than China and Vietnam, because of the potential of Chinese military aggression, but in the near term, yeah China had more influence. That whole thing only served the interest of th capitalists, not America.

Vietnam is not a democracy like South Korea and Japan. Could have been, such a waste of a war.

[BlackCat]

-North Vietnam, it fought the U.S. to a draw, then defeated the South, and to an extent has rebuilt and rejoined the international community.

That is really a beautyful bird.

threadjack
Same, though in the big league. 4:55 and forward is quite interesting



/threadjack

[kentonio]

-North Vietnam, it fought the U.S. to a draw, then defeated the South, and to an extent has rebuilt and rejoined the international community.

I don't see any way Vietnam wasn't a complete defeat for the US, any more than Afghanistan was for the Russians. When you're a superpower you can't just get fought to a bloody stalemate by a guerilla army and walk away claiming a draw.

[PLATO]

I don't see any way Vietnam wasn't a complete defeat for the US, any more than Afghanistan was for the Russians. When you're a superpower you can't just get fought to a bloody stalemate by a guerilla army and walk away claiming a draw.

I have to agree. It all comes down to the goals that you set in going to war. The U.S. goal in Vietnam was to stop the spread of communism into South Vietnam. Total failure in doing that.

Same type argument can be made for the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[Berzerker]

Uh... No. You need to check your stuff, Berz. Obama withdrew the troops in 2012 with a large drawdown because that was his campaign promise.

The withdrawal was negotiated by Bush and the reason we left is because the Iraqis wouldn't extend immunity for our soldiers, that wasn't Obama's fault

Iraq was a political entity. The US had no role it it's formation.

I never said the US created Iraq, that was done long ago by the Brits

[Berzerker]

Uh... No. You need to check your stuff, Berz. Obama withdrew the troops in 2012 with a large drawdown because that was his campaign promise.

The withdrawal was negotiated by Bush and the reason we left is because the Iraqis wouldn't extend immunity for our soldiers, that wasn't Obama's fault

Jesus, Bush negotiates a deal with Iraq and Obama carries it out and Repugs blame Obama

Iraq was a political entity. The US had no role it it's formation.

I never said the US created Iraq, that was done long ago by the Brits

[giblets]

I don't see any way Vietnam wasn't a complete defeat for the US, any more than Afghanistan was for the Russians. When you're a superpower you can't just get fought to a bloody stalemate by a guerilla army and walk away claiming a draw.

They signed a peace treaty, and then North Vietnam broke the treaty and conquered South Vietnam, and the Democrats in congress wouldn't provide funding to support South Vietnam.

[kentonio]

They signed a peace treaty, and then North Vietnam broke the treaty and conquered South Vietnam, and the Democrats in congress wouldn't provide funding to support South Vietnam.

They signed a peace treaty because they knew they couldn't win. There was no public or political will left to spend the money and American and Vietnamese lives that would have been required to overpower the North. That one war had already fractured US society and done irreperable harm to the self image of the US as a force for good. Anything from 1m to 3.5m estimated deaths, including 58,303 US servicemen and a financial cost of around a trillion $ in todays money. Oh and let's not forget..

It’s estimated that 70,000 to 300,000 Vietnam Veterans committed suicide and around 700,000 veterans suffered psychological trauma.

http://thevietnamwar.info/how-much-vietnam-war-cost/

What did the US get in return for all those lives and that money? They lost the South to communism anyway.

[Ben Kenobi]

because they knew they couldn't win. There was no public or political will left to spend the money

Who is "they"? They didn't want to win it. Plain and simple.

[Ben Kenobi]

The withdrawal was negotiated by Bush and the reason we left is because the Iraqis wouldn't extend immunity for our soldiers, that wasn't Obama's fault

Christ. Obama promised to have the troops out. That's why he pulled them out in 2012. That's also why he refuses to authorize their return to fight ISIS.