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Why has America stopped winning wars?

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  • #91
    Korean War - Draw between U.S./China
    Tactical loss, strategic victory for the US. US gained a large, democratic ally that has been a bulwark of stability. N. Korea is a ****hole. 1:0 for the US.

    Vietnam War - Draw Between U.S. and Socialist Republic of Vietnam along with its backers in USSR and China, rapidly followed by Victory for the SRV over the RoV in 1975
    I'd consider Vietnam to be a tactical, and strategic loss for the United States. Longterm goal has been the massive increase in Chinese and Communist influence over the region. So that's 1:1

    Gulf War - Victory for the U.S. led coalition
    Right now? it's a tactical victory - strategic loss for the US. So I'd say that the Gulf war was another loss overall for the US. 1:2.

    Afghanistan - Draw/Pyrrhic victory for the U.S.
    So far, Afghanistan is a win for the US. 2:2.

    Iraq - Draw/Pyrrhic victory for the U.S.
    I think the results have been 2:2 since the Second world war. Loss in Vietnam and loss - so far in Iraq. But that could quite easily change. They beat ISIS that would turn Iraq into a strategic win for the US.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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    • #92
      Obama withdrawal? That was Bush who negotiated our withdrawal
      Uh... No. You need to check your stuff, Berz. Obama withdrew the troops in 2012 with a large drawdown because that was his campaign promise.

      Iraq should never have existed as a political entity
      Something the US had to decide when they were invading Kuwait. Stand up for Kuwait or stand out of it. Iraq was a political entity. The US had no role it it's formation.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • #93
        "I'd consider Vietnam to be a tactical, and strategic loss for the United States. Longterm goal has been the massive increase in Chinese and Communist influence over the region. So that's 1:1"
        -BK

        Actually in the long term Vietnam and the US are more allies than China and Vietnam, because of the potential of Chinese military aggression, but in the near term, yeah China had more influence. That whole thing only served the interest of th capitalists, not America.
        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
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        • #94
          JM
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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          • #95
            korn, i'm afraid the way you look at those wars doesn't make sense. if you applied the same standard to just about every colonial conflict in africa and asia then you would say that the european powers won almost every time. this is clearly absurd. one must consider the political results when analysing a conflict.

            the point about a 'pyrrhic victor' is that pyrrhus won his battles but ultimately lost his wars, couldn't hold on to his conquests and ended up hacked to death at argos.
            "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

            "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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            • #96
              Actually in the long term Vietnam and the US are more allies than China and Vietnam, because of the potential of Chinese military aggression, but in the near term, yeah China had more influence. That whole thing only served the interest of th capitalists, not America.
              Vietnam is not a democracy like South Korea and Japan. Could have been, such a waste of a war.
              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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              • #97
                Originally posted by korn469 View Post

                -North Vietnam, it fought the U.S. to a draw, then defeated the South, and to an extent has rebuilt and rejoined the international community.




                That is really a beautyful bird.

                threadjack
                Same, though in the big league. 4:55 and forward is quite interesting



                /threadjack
                With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                Steven Weinberg

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by korn469 View Post
                  -North Vietnam, it fought the U.S. to a draw, then defeated the South, and to an extent has rebuilt and rejoined the international community.
                  I don't see any way Vietnam wasn't a complete defeat for the US, any more than Afghanistan was for the Russians. When you're a superpower you can't just get fought to a bloody stalemate by a guerilla army and walk away claiming a draw.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                    I don't see any way Vietnam wasn't a complete defeat for the US, any more than Afghanistan was for the Russians. When you're a superpower you can't just get fought to a bloody stalemate by a guerilla army and walk away claiming a draw.
                    I have to agree. It all comes down to the goals that you set in going to war. The U.S. goal in Vietnam was to stop the spread of communism into South Vietnam. Total failure in doing that.

                    Same type argument can be made for the Soviets in Afghanistan.
                    "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                    • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                      Uh... No. You need to check your stuff, Berz. Obama withdrew the troops in 2012 with a large drawdown because that was his campaign promise.
                      The withdrawal was negotiated by Bush and the reason we left is because the Iraqis wouldn't extend immunity for our soldiers, that wasn't Obama's fault

                      Iraq was a political entity. The US had no role it it's formation.
                      I never said the US created Iraq, that was done long ago by the Brits

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                      • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                        Uh... No. You need to check your stuff, Berz. Obama withdrew the troops in 2012 with a large drawdown because that was his campaign promise.
                        The withdrawal was negotiated by Bush and the reason we left is because the Iraqis wouldn't extend immunity for our soldiers, that wasn't Obama's fault

                        Jesus, Bush negotiates a deal with Iraq and Obama carries it out and Repugs blame Obama

                        Iraq was a political entity. The US had no role it it's formation.
                        I never said the US created Iraq, that was done long ago by the Brits
                        Last edited by Berzerker; June 13, 2015, 14:15.

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                        • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                          I don't see any way Vietnam wasn't a complete defeat for the US, any more than Afghanistan was for the Russians. When you're a superpower you can't just get fought to a bloody stalemate by a guerilla army and walk away claiming a draw.
                          They signed a peace treaty, and then North Vietnam broke the treaty and conquered South Vietnam, and the Democrats in congress wouldn't provide funding to support South Vietnam.

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                          • Originally posted by giblets View Post
                            They signed a peace treaty, and then North Vietnam broke the treaty and conquered South Vietnam, and the Democrats in congress wouldn't provide funding to support South Vietnam.
                            They signed a peace treaty because they knew they couldn't win. There was no public or political will left to spend the money and American and Vietnamese lives that would have been required to overpower the North. That one war had already fractured US society and done irreperable harm to the self image of the US as a force for good. Anything from 1m to 3.5m estimated deaths, including 58,303 US servicemen and a financial cost of around a trillion $ in todays money. Oh and let's not forget..

                            It’s estimated that 70,000 to 300,000 Vietnam Veterans committed suicide and around 700,000 veterans suffered psychological trauma.
                            http://thevietnamwar.info/how-much-vietnam-war-cost/

                            What did the US get in return for all those lives and that money? They lost the South to communism anyway.

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                            • because they knew they couldn't win. There was no public or political will left to spend the money
                              Who is "they"? They didn't want to win it. Plain and simple.
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                              • The withdrawal was negotiated by Bush and the reason we left is because the Iraqis wouldn't extend immunity for our soldiers, that wasn't Obama's fault
                                Christ. Obama promised to have the troops out. That's why he pulled them out in 2012. That's also why he refuses to authorize their return to fight ISIS.
                                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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