Irish Marriage Equality Referendum Draws Near

[Ben Kenobi]

You didn't just say you would "expect" them to feel that way ... you said you wouldn't consider it to be prejudice.

Prejudice just means that - pre-judging. It's not pre-judging anymore if the person has been mugged by a black person.

It would be prejudice if say, "mama says we're not to trust the black folks". It would be prejudice to say, "your mother should have aborted you because you are deaf."

I've been on the receiving end of real, actual prejudice. It sucks. But there's a difference between someone who's prejudiced because of what they have been taught, and someone who's been badly beaten and hurt. They have a rational reason to fear black folks. If someone was a Grizzly bear snack and escaped, I'd not be surprised to hear that they aren't fond of Grizzly bears.

Second question - is fear of different things really all that irrational? The problem with racism isn't that it's irrational but that it's rational. It makes sense for folks to prefer folks that are similar to them.

[giblets]

I said, and I repeat myself that I am not surprised when someone says this or that they hold this opinion. I would expect that.

I also repeat, for those of you playing at home, you do recall I don't believe that human nature is good? I believe that human beings are sinful. I also don't believe that what is rational is necessarily right.

You may believe that, I do not. When I am saying that "X is rational" I am saying that, "X has a reasonable justification behind his actions." I can understand the train of thought as to how X leads to Y.

Hurting people leads to hurt people who carry those hurts over many years. They have a significant influence over how that person interacts with people in general and people in specific. I am not arguing that I personally would respond that way, only that there is a good explanation as to why.

Talk to a psychologist. They will agree with me.

It's not reasonable to be racist against black people because of something a black person did. If you think that's a "reasonable justification", you are a racist. Maybe someone who is afraid of black people because of a bad experience with a black person needs cognitive therapy, but that doesn't make them "reasonable". Stop being racist.

[giblets]

I would avoid grizzly bears because grizzly bears are large carnivorous wild animals. Personal experience isn't relevant. Maybe someone who was attacked by a grizzly bear suffers from PTSD, but that's not reason.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not reasonable to be racist against black people because of something a black person did. If you think that's a "reasonable justification", you are a racist. Maybe someone who is afraid of black people because of a bad experience with a black person needs cognitive therapy, but that doesn't make them "reasonable". Stop being racist.

Gribbler, is it possible for something to be both true and not rational? You're equating 'Reasonable" with "right". Many things which are "reasonable" are quite wrong. You can look at a galaxy, and the reasonable, but wrong, assumption is that it's just a part of our own galaxy. It wasn't until the 30s and 40s that this could be proven otherwise.

I would avoid grizzly bears because grizzly bears are large carnivorous wild animals.

And people are not?

Personal experience isn't relevant.

It's very relevant to trauma survivors.

Maybe someone who was attacked by a grizzly bear suffers from PTSD, but that's not reason.

Interesting. I'd not be surprised with someone who feared Grizzly bears after a bad encounter with one.

[giblets]

Gribbler, is it possible for something to be both true and not rational? You're equating 'Reasonable" with "right". Many things which are "reasonable" are quite wrong. You can look at a galaxy, and the reasonable, but wrong, assumption is that it's just a part of our own galaxy. It wasn't until the 30s and 40s that this could be proven otherwise.

Are you claiming racism is true and not rational?

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you claiming racism is true and not rational?

I'm claiming that it is rational but not true. There is logic behind it, "birds of a feather", but it uses that logic to state the erroneous conclusion that some people are more valuable than other people. If sameness were irrational, racism wouldn't exist.

[giblets]

No, it's not rational to make conclusions from a sample size of one

Also, the saying is "birds of a feather flock together", and flocking involves choosing to associate with others. People don't choose to be black, obviously. You don't seem to understand idioms.

[Aeson]

Prejudice just means that - pre-judging. It's not pre-judging anymore if the person has been mugged by a black person.

A person who hates all black people because they were mugged by one black person is pre-judging all the black people that didn't mug them.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, it's not rational to make conclusions from a sample size of one

"Birds of a feather" is something I coined?

[giblets]

"Birds of a feather" is something I coined?

You don't understand idioms and should stop attempting to use them.

[Ben Kenobi]

A person who hates all black people because they were mugged by one black person is pre-judging all the black people that didn't mug them.

Which is why I don't think acting on those feelings is rational. But I think it's really hard for the person to separate the reminder of what happened to them, with the truth that this person hasn't done anything to them.

Especially if the mugger was a random attack and a stranger. I don't know - it's just been my experience that folks who have been hurt carry those hurts for a long time and it influences them even in ways they might not necessarily be aware of them.

[Ben Kenobi]

You don't understand idioms and should stop attempting to use them.

I don't see why people craving people who are like them is irrational. Loin has commented on that in this very thread, already, when he suggested I go flock with Catholic birdies.

[giblets]

Of all the hundreds of characteristics a mugger had that you could single out and harbor a prejudice against, what are the odds you would pick skin color if you weren't already predisposed to judge people based on their skin color?

"Oh I hate left handed people, a left handed person mugged me once"...?

[giblets]

I don't see why people craving people who are like them is irrational. Loin has commented on that in this very thread, already, when he suggested I go flock with Catholic birdies.

Fixating on skin color when defining who is or isn't "like you" and "craving" to be around people with a similar skin color is not rational.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of all the hundreds of characteristics a mugger had that you could single out and harbor a prejudice against, what are the odds you would pick skin color if you weren't already predisposed to judge people based on their skin color?

"Oh I hate left handed people, a left handed person mugged me once"...?

Are you asking me personally? I'd be more concerned about the locale than the person, and the time. Most crime happens at specific areas at specific times. You can avoid most trouble by just not being in certain areas. Alone at night is bad.

The time I got assaulted I was walking alone at night downtown in the street. I don't do that anymore.

The landlord issues were a more difficult problem. I find it really hard looking for a place to live, just the whole process of looking for a place, signing up for one, emailing them, and getting a bunch of listings. And even then you don't necessarily have the time to be picky...

That's what I kept running into. Last place has been fantastic. No dope seems to make all the difference in the world, finding someone who doesn't do drugs.

Fixating on skin color when defining who is or isn't "like you" and "craving" to be around people with a similar skin color is not rational.

People often crave sameness. People with similar backgrounds tend to have more not less similarities. Ergo, it makes sense for them to want to be with people with similar backgrounds. Given where I'm from, that generally means people from the similar backgrounds come from similar areas and have generally the same skin color.

This isn't applicable to just white people only, btw.

Crime-wise the uncomfortable truth is that if you're profiling, you go after the communities most likely to commit crimes. That would be black men in the United States.