what happened to the großrossiya thread

[The Mad Monk]

[Ellestar]

War is bad for capitalism because it kills your customers.

"The prisoner's dilemma is a standard example of a game analyzed in game theory that shows why two completely "rational" individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests to do so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

And so on. While it's true that war reduces total available profis for all capitalists as a whole, it multiplies profits of certain specific capitalists.

P.S. And i thought it's a strategy games forum... People don't know even absolute basics of game theory...
I understand how obvious bull**** like that can fly as a generic propaganda, but here?

[BeBMan]

Well, at least i'm not a brainwashed mutant and i simply tell the truth.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/696646/Thomas-Salbey-Munich-shooter-Ali-Sonboly-prosecution

You're completely insane in your "don't talk about migrants no matter what" brainwash-induced stupor, and you don't even realize how far into insaninty you are. You're like Nazi, but the opposite in some sense - Nazi killed other people as their government told them, and you let others kill you as your government told you.

And after that zombies like you teach people like me what we're not free. Man, you're so brainwashed and not free that it even overrides your instinct to live.

I don't have enough data yet to establish whether you're a mutant or not. Which is why I made no statement about you being in a state of mutanthood so far.

As for your linky - aside from the little fact that the prosecution meanwhile ceased to follow the case - I never said anything along the line of "don't talk about migrants no matter what", so cut the bull****. But statements from you like "So you leave your (bad looking) women to the wolves... I mean, migrants." are both sexist and racist, so don't expect other ppl to sit idle when reading this kind of asshattery.

Of course compared to your support for beating up ppl that do something you don't like and your justification of the killings of innocent ppl which have done nothing more than voting for someone you disapprove of your racist and sexist stuff is rather lame.



Some of your other gems:

Why do you call it "occupation"? They were independent countries, even Poland that was previously part of a Russian Empire.

Warsaw pact member states were demonstrably not independent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezhnev_Doctrine

Formulated officially in 1968, long-standing policy way before. It comes down to "you are independent as long you do not do anything contrary to our key interests" - which is - when push comes to shove, no independence at all.

So, basically, it wasn't an occupation, and regime change to a technically more morally superior ideology was theoretically a good thing too.

When the eastern block got established Uncle Joe was still in charge. What aspects of his rule do you deem morally superior, the god-emperor-cult, the Hitler-Stalin pact, cooperation with Nazi Germany pre-1941, or the gulag system and mass-killings during the so-called "purges" vs. his own ppl? Cleary something everybody would want, heh?

Sure there have been a number of commies who had different ideals, but they were not those who determined the real-world face of communism, and their ideals were certainly *not* shaping the eastern block or the USSR itself post-WW2 or post-Stalin either.

Even Stalin's successors, while moving away from outright totalitarian rule to somewhat more authoritarian forms, and - in case of Khrushchev deserving credit for de-stalinization efforts (which mostly ceased later again) - did not treat their communist brothers as independent, as seen in Budapest and Prague, to mention only two of the more prominent cases.

Most eastern European countries under Soviet influence were not allowed to hold completely free elections, or generally to choose which course they wanted to adopt (form of society/economy/changing stance reg. Warsaw Pact membership), and in several cases where they tried, they were crushed by Soviet military action, so yes, occupation is the correct term.

It also explains why all those countries did run away from the Soviet hemisphere when they finally had the chance to do so (at the end of the Soviet block).

[Sir Og]

Oh come on. I think i already said that i don't like retarded questions, did i? War shouldn't be profitable for people or for the government. For example, capitalists who own military-industrial complex always benefit from a war (as long as their country doesn't lose the land with their military factories, of course). That's a basic common sense. I don't need to prove it in any way to you. Either you have common sense, and you know it as well as i do, or you don't, and then you're too stupid to discuss things with me anyway, and there is no reason to try to "explain" anything to you.

Also, you can always google something like "who profited from Iraq war", and usually there is plenty of people willing to explain it to you. No need to ask me about that.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_115004.html

The US made no "profit" on the Iraq war. They spent over $1 bn and got nothing in return.
There were individual companies that made money but the government could have just given away $1 bn and get the same "profit" without going into war.

[rah]

Don't Bother, HE's so used to the concept that if individual companies are making money that it means that Putin and his buddies are the actual ones making the money.

[Ellestar]

The US made no "profit" on the Iraq war. They spent over $1 bn and got nothing in return.
There were individual companies that made money but the government could have just given away $1 bn and get the same "profit" without going into war.

And that's why i said about capitalists, not about specific countries.

You see, that's EXACTLY how capitalists work. It's not really a government's money, it's a people's money. They can be used to make better roads, give better healthcare and such. Instead, capitalists siphon these money on wars, and make a profit from it. Just like they profit on the people in other ways. Wars are just one more way to make profit.

But statements from you like "So you leave your (bad looking) women to the wolves... I mean, migrants." are both sexist and racist, so don't expect other ppl to sit idle when reading this kind of asshattery.

Well, that's what you do. So it was meant to make you rethink about it. Unfortunately, it's hard to reach your brains through all that western brainwashing. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

Of course compared to your support for beating up ppl that do something you don't like and your justification of the killings of innocent ppl which have done nothing more than voting for someone you disapprove of your racist and sexist stuff is rather lame.

Innocent? You're not innocent. You're accompices. You voted for a government that starts offensive wars and destroys other countries. If you put murderes in power, you're totally responsible for their actions. As i said, citizens of dictatorships can claim innoncence because they have almost no way to do something about what their government does. Citizens of democratic countries have no such excuse.

Warsaw pact member states were demonstrably not independent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezhnev_Doctrine

Formulated officially in 1968, long-standing policy way before. It comes down to "you are independent as long you do not do anything contrary to our key interests" - which is - when push comes to shove, no independence at all.

Same as NATO, members are supposed to defend each other. And?

When the eastern block got established Uncle Joe was still in charge. What aspects of his rule do you deem morally superior, the god-emperor-cult, the Hitler-Stalin pact, cooperation with Nazi Germany pre-1941, or the gulag system and mass-killings during the so-called "purges" vs. his own ppl? Cleary something everybody would want, heh?

I said "in theory" so not to argue about practical things, but fine, let it be as you wish.

Let's begin from the fact that Hitler was capitalist. And Hitler made deals with other "non-Nazi" capitalists, and these "non-Nazi" capitalists even fed entire countries to Hitler, so all that "pact" propaganda is just that, anti-Soviet propaganda - capitalists were even worse. And capitalists traded with Nazi Germany through entire WW2. And we had "volunteer" divisions from all over Europe on our land, so it's not like only Nazi Germany was fighting us, it was actually Nazi Europe. So yeah, capitalists will find it hard to argue their moral superiorority even if you consider practical aspects.

And the only real difference between Nazi Germany and supposedly "Not Nazi" Western European civilization was that Nazi thought it's totaly ok to mass-murder and genocide whites, and the rest of Western European civilization thought it's totally ok to mass-murder and genocide non-whites. Need i remind you about what USA did in Vietnam, for example? Or what Western civilization did in colonies?

Gulag mention is a funny thing because "democratic" USA has more prisoners right this instant than all Soviet prisons, including Gulag, ever had at it's peak in 1938 IIRC.

God-Emperor cult is also funny, given that all property of Stalin (other than a handful of nondescript clothing) was small enough to fit into a briefcase. That indeed was a poorest God-Emperor in the entire world history, i guess only fictional characters can beat that. That's an ultimate unbeatable proof that all he did was for the good of the country, how he understood that. Every later USSR leader was richer, and guess what, we're back to capitalism now. And of course every single filthy rich capitalist badmouths Stalin - that's the only thing he can do, after all - to badmouth a person who gave it all for the country, with absolutely nothing for himself. Hell, Stalin didn't even use his position to exchange his own son so to save him. Who of the western presidents can claim that he didn't use his position even to save his eldest son?

So, as you see, communism is morally superior to capitalism even in practice.

Sure there have been a number of commies who had different ideals, but they were not those who determined the real-world face of communism, and their ideals were certainly *not* shaping the eastern block or the USSR itself post-WW2 or post-Stalin either.

So? It's not like democracy and common people are shaping a majority of supposedly democratic countries (and that's, like, most of the world now?). Even most vocal "democratic" countries are actually shaped by capitalists. Yet, noone argues that democracy is a bad thing only because it doesn't work as good as it's supposed to. And in many countries it practically doesn't work at all. So what?

Most eastern European countries under Soviet influence were not allowed to hold completely free elections, or generally to choose which course they wanted to adopt (form of society/economy/changing stance reg. Warsaw Pact membership), and in several cases where they tried, they were crushed by Soviet military action, so yes, occupation is the correct term.

Western countries magically do? What about communist parties being banned in most capitalist countries?

And btw that's called counter-revolution. Naturally, communists didn't welcome that. Just like capitalists resorted to coups, actual invasions and full-blown wars where millions have died to install their own form of society/economy/whatever - but hey, it wasn't in Europe, so it doens't count, right, my western Nazi friend? When it's Europe and whites, and it's done by non-"democracies", it's bad. When that's not Europe or non-whites, but it's done by "democracies", it's not even worth being considered. Come on, you gotta admit, that logic is totally Nazi-like, and should be dropped. Any decent person should think that all men are created equal, and you can't argue that things done in Europe and with Europeans are infinitely more important than things done in non-Europe with non-Europeans. I hope more and more people in the West will start to open their eyes.

It also explains why all those countries did run away from the Soviet hemisphere when they finally had the chance to do so (at the end of the Soviet block).

Even USSR ran away from a Soviet block (the way it was), so it's hardly a proof of anything. Yep, that communist project didn't work in the end, leadership become corrupted and a counter-revolution reverted it back to capitalism. So what? Well, other than a hint that humanity is unlikely to produce decent leadership that can make a real communist country, so it shouldn't be tried again.

[Dinner]

Listening to Ellestar talk about offensive wars while the Russian army murders tens of thousands and occupies many more in the Ukraine is laughable. But then again he was dumb enough to think Donbass coal miners just happened to find state of the art Russian built surface to air missile systems which shot down civilian planes so we know the man is deficient in reasoning ability.

It takes a special type of willful stupidity to not only ignore his own dictator's crimes but to pretend they do not exist. Maybe Russians deserve the proverty, corruption, and lack of rule of law which the dictator Putin has given them. You are robbed blind and lied to but you think it is OK because Putin's propaganda ministry tells you all is well and anyone who dares to tell the truth is either killed or imprisoned.

[Ellestar]

Listening to Ellestar talk about offensive wars while the Russian army murders tens of thousands and occupies many more in the Ukraine is laughable.

Everyone knows that "pro-EU" coup was organized by the West. And Russian army killed exactly ZERO people in Crimea, the only place where was a Russian army. But then again, you live in a parallel world of a western propaganda...

But then again he was dumb enough to think Donbass coal miners just happened to find state of the art Russian built surface to air missile systems which shot down civilian planes so we know the man is deficient in reasoning ability.

Actually, missile wasn't state of the art, as long as it's a Buk missile of course, given the lack of H-shaped fragments or holes. I guess Ukraine had nowhere to get a state of the art missile, it had only much older ones.

And i'm too bored to answer the rest of your boring and baseless rant.

[Giancarlo]

Lol... Dinner and Ellestar arguing. Two extremes arguing is like watching someone gut a fish. Oh and the Russian army is full of killers. To say they weren't in Ukrainian (outside of illegally occupied Crimea) is a lie. The Russian army is so badly trained they didn't do so well there though. So Putin moved onto other distractions... Syria. Just to help the Russian public forget about their sh*t economy and collapsing public services.

[Dinner]

Fez, you are far more of a extremist than I am. Do you ever notice how everyone is a extremist in your mind? Without knowing anything about a person you always make wildly inaccurate sweeping statements based upon stereotypes. I have noticed this about you several times and I know I am not the only one.

[Bereta_Eder]

Warsaw pact member states were demonstrably not independent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezhnev_Doctrine

Formulated officially in 1968, long-standing policy way before. It comes down to "you are independent as long you do not do anything contrary to our key interests" - which is - when push comes to shove, no independence at all.

That was exactly what was happening in the west too.

One of the most extreme examples (there are more in europe proper) was Turkey.
Marshal Plan. Millions poured to the people?

Of course not.
Millions poured to an autoritarian fascism machine with the whole aime to crush communists. Fascists and capitalists share a lot, that's one of them.

The crushing of communists, which in a fascist state were the only ones actually fighting for democracy was so thourough that the effects can be seen today.

[giblets]

communists fighting for democracy

[Giancarlo]

Fez, you are far more of a extremist than I am. Do you ever notice how everyone is a extremist in your mind? Without knowing anything about a person you always make wildly inaccurate sweeping statements based upon stereotypes. I have noticed this about you several times and I know I am not the only one.

Stop calling me fez. It is obvious you never bring in any form of support to a debate. You are on the same wave length as Ellestar and you have been brought down repeatedly. Na, you are the only one who thinks that because you have this ignorant preconceived notions about who I am.

In other words, you made up your mind without looking at the proof. Pretty common for you. This is almost as bad as your argument for free trade.

[Dinner]

We are talking about Russia sending military units to the Ukraine. If you think that is not backed by facts (which have been repeatedly linked in this very thread) then YOU are the one detached from reality and not dealing with the real world.

You are as put to lalaland on that topic as you are when you claim trade makes the world more poor. You are just a nutter scream nonsense so stop the fake outrage when knowledgeable people simply laugh at you and then ignore you as a nutter.

[Giancarlo]

We are talking about Russia sending military units to the Ukraine. If you think that is not backed by facts (which have been repeatedly linked in this very thread) then YOU are the one detached from reality and not dealing with the real world.

You are as put to lalaland on that topic as you are when you claim trade makes the world more poor. You are just a nutter scream nonsense so stop the fake outrage when knowledgeable people simply laugh at you and then ignore you as a nutter.

I never disputed anything about Ukraine. In fact I said in one prior post Russian troops were certainly in Ukraine (outside of Crimea itself).

I am more directing my statements towards your ignorance. Free trade only works towards the elite. The working poor and middle classes do not benefit from it. I am not a butter. My center left wing viewpoints represent a majority of the developed world. I don't view free trade as any type of solution to anything.