Yet another damn terrorist attack

[Lorizael]

See. This bugs me. You needed "God" to "impress" this upon you?

WTF man. Rape is wrong. You shouldn't need a god to tell you this.

The lack of self-awareness in statements like these has always astounded me. There is something telling you that rape is wrong, whether it be your gut, your ideas of how civil society should operate, your sense of decency, the culture in which you were raised, etc. How is this any different from JM? I'm sure he has a pretty instinctive negative reaction to rape. The only difference is he believes that reaction ultimately comes from God.

[Jon Miller]

Holy crap! So what you're essentially saying is that, unless you have specific commandments from a 'higher being', you would be open to the idea of committing rape, murder etc? That you have no free will or self-awareness to realise right from wrong!?

Also, do you consider your wife a possession, or someone who is your equal in all things in terms of rights etc?

Huh?

Do you disagree that throughout significant portions of human history that most human groups thought of women as possessions and so on?

I am really confused about your and Sava's view of history.

You guys do know that pre-Christian groups are generally much more 'OK' with the idea of rape/murder than groups which have been Christianized.

The Noble Savage was just a myth.

JM
(And I am also confused about your and Sava's reading capability. Where did I even imply that I thought that women were possessions or that I needed explicit instructions from God not to rape/murder/etc. My conscience has evolved to the point where I don't need those explicit instructions, but a significant component of this evolution has been Christianity and other religions).

[I AM MOBIUS]

How could I have a belief system and not think it was the correct one and that the others were, in some way, misguided or mistaken.

That includes 'universalist' belief systems like Unitarians and most definitely atheists.

Just... The arrogance is astounding...!

It's like the people that change religions to suit their belief systems because it's the 'right religion' for them? Surely it's not up to them to decide, but God(s)? But wait, that's why there's so many religions - because they're all false and made up - otherwise people would know which one to choose!

I mean, there is no more proof that the brand of religion you follow (because it is essentially a brand!) is real compared to Scientology!?

You think that all religious people are hugely mistaken and completely wrong, while atheists are completely right. I think that most religious people have a few mistakes (and in some cases, minor ones) and are partially right, and even atheists (of the humanist variety) are not completely wrong.

And also, I don't necessarily think that all religious people are hugely mistaken and completely wrong - just that the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that, at the very least, assuming some kind of deity(ies) exists, the vast majority of all the religious people in the world are barking up the wrong tree! Please disprove that basic logic - oh wait, you can't!

And no, atheists are not completely right, for example I happen to think that Dawkins is a colossal dick! Hell, I wouldn't even specifically define myself as an atheist in the first place... Why are religious people so inflexibly black and white about things?

I also acknowledge that I have a few mistakes in my belief system and am seeking to improve it. Obviously I have the best belief system as I can, but I expect that there are people out there who have better belief systems.

So, if you find people with better belief systems, are you going to convert to theirs?

[Sava]

Throughout most of human history people didn't seem to think this though...

This statement says a lot about your moral compass. It's pretty fucked, to be honest.

[Jon Miller]

The lack of self-awareness in statements like these has always astounded me. There is something telling you that rape is wrong, whether it be your gut, your ideas of how civil society should operate, your sense of decency, the culture in which you were raised, etc. How is this any different from JM? I'm sure he has a pretty instinctive negative reaction to rape. The only difference is he believes that reaction ultimately comes from God.

I am also very confused by their posts.

I actually think we have both good and bad natural inclinations (with God as the ultimate source since he created the universe, but that isn't very relevant here). The point is that to be good, which is a lot more than just not raping or not murdering, needs God. I don't think that a humanist, despite having the best intentions, can achieve it without God.

One of the points of (good) religion is that it is transformative. And if you look how the middle east/european/etc society was 4000 years ago and how it is now, you can see that religion has done a lot of good in relation to murdering/raping/etc.

JM

[Jon Miller]

So, if you find people with better belief systems, are you going to convert to theirs?

Of course. And my Christianity today is very different than my Christianity of 20 years ago.

It would now take something pretty amazing for me to change form Christianity to Judaism (for example), but that is because of non-repeatable (and so not valid for scientific study) experiences (mostly or entirely in the last 15 years, after I became an adult).

JM
(I would say that my belief system was mostly intellectual in my teens and preteens and so heavily dependent on my axioms. It could easily change by changing my axioms, which I considered. My belief system now includes more personal experiences and so can't be easily changed purely by changing a core axiom.)

[Sava]

Well, I suppose it doesn't matter what you think, JM, as long as you aren't out hurting people.

But seriously, you're pretty messed up.

[Jon Miller]

This statement says a lot about your moral compass. It's pretty fucked, to be honest.

Have you ever read history books?

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sava, Jon is fine. He's less of a "****stain" (in your parlance) than, say, Mobius.

Also I think you are misinterpreting what Jon is saying, re: God tell him that rape is wrong. It's more 'meta' (if you will) than you are making it out to be.

[Sava]

Have you ever read history books?

JM

Solid reply.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Huh?

Do you disagree that throughout significant portions of human history that most human groups thought of women as possessions and so on?

I am really confused about your and Sava's view of history.

You guys do know that pre-Christian groups are generally much more 'OK' with the idea of rape/murder than groups which have been Christianized.

No, they were just less civilised back then, savages as you say, so it was a case of 'he who is strongest' and often came specifically through conquest.

But there have been enlightened matriarchal societies down the line...

And besides, as I've pointed out, the bible actively endorses rape, and kidnapping to rape.

(And I am also confused about your and Sava's reading capability. Where did I even imply that I thought that women were possessions or that I needed explicit instructions from God not to rape/murder/etc. My conscience has evolved to the point where I don't need those explicit instructions, but a significant component of this evolution has been Christianity and other religions).

Well for a start you specifically state:

God impressed on me that rape is wrong

That implies that you have no free will of your own to decide whether rape is right or wrong - that you need this entity you believe in to create a moral framework for you...

And this bit:

Hmm... it isn't rape if they are married... I will give that instruction.

Um, newsflash - if you force yourself on someone you are married to - it is still rape!!!

Christ, you actually sound morally... dangerous...! And it is there that the implication is that you 'possess' the wife, as you seem to agree yourself that in the bible, it is not rape if the woman is married to you against her will and that it is also not rape if you have sex with her when you choose (and she doesn't).

And you contradict yourself: you say 'you have evolved sufficiently' and yet you say 'that this instruction has come from religion' - which is it!?

That's the thing, I bet your average atheist is a far more fair and egalitarian person - less sexist, racist, homophobic, than religious people.

[Sava]

Sava, Jon is fine. He's less of a "****stain" (in your parlance) than, say, Mobius.

Also I think you are misinterpreting what Jon is saying, re: God tell him that rape is wrong. It's more 'meta' (if you will) than you are making it out to be.

Mobius seems okay. He's a little quick to throw out misogyny accusations, imo, but I've never heard him say something stupid like "I believe rape is wrong because God said so"... and use a defense of "well hey, humans used to be primitive, so that's okay"

[I AM MOBIUS]

The point is that to be good, needs God.

Holy ****, so you're essentially saying that if you don't believe in god, you cannot be good!!?

No wonder you can't understand Sava and me, you're seriously whacked in the head!

[Jon Miller]

OK, now I am pretty sure you and Sava would fail a highschool reading comprehension class.

You said that the Bible said that rape was OK (in a particular situation, where the girl marries the rapist). I then responded with explaining how the passage came to be (remember, it was not written from God but by Moses (if you are a believer) or by some priests (if you are a doubter). Namely I posted that Moses (or the writer) was impressed by God that rape was wrong (his conscience was touched) and then attempted to express that into the culture of the time (the culture of the writer, where rape was not wrong, whether it was of women or children or strangers). The result was the instruction that the man should be punished or marry the woman.

I don't see how you could read my post any think that I was talking about myself, the post would make no sense at any level.

JM

[I AM MOBIUS]

Mobius seems okay. He's a little quick to throw out misogyny accusations, imo, but I've never heard him say something stupid like "I believe rape is wrong because God said so"... and use a defense of "well hey, humans used to be primitive, so that's okay"

Yeah, if I understand him correctly, I think he just essentially said that god 'evolved' him (is this intelligent design?) from a primitive potential rapist, into a non-rapist (except if you're married, when god says it's OK).