Yet another damn terrorist attack

[Sava]

oh wow

seems I was right about Elok after all

fucking ****stain

enjoy hell

[I AM MOBIUS]

A significant fraction of the Bible is about how not to do things.

Yes, "Don't rape the innocent virgin like this - rape her like this instead."
OR

"If you want to kill one of your slaves, don't kill him outright, but condemn him to a cruel and lingering death"



But, good of you to at least admit that the good stuff is only a small (but significant) part of the bible.

Fraction:

a very small part or segment of anything; minute portion: "Only a fraction of the work was completed on time."

If it is very different from the Quran, and it is a book that exhorts murder, slavery and rape etc - does that make the Quran the better book?

Also, received wisdom (from the Christians on this forum) seems to be that Muhammed was a very nasty man, but Jesus was, like,

Maybe he just didn't live long enough to emulate his nasty vengeful father and do the really bad ****? Maybe the Romans did us all a favour by nailing him to the cross?

On that point my view coincides with Elok's.

On the other hand, I think that it is a very advanced a nice religion (similar to Judaism or Christianity or Sikhism).

Ah yes, the patronising, but 'it is a very advanced nice religion' (though my religion is much nicer), next you'll be saying "some of my friends are Jews, Muslims and Sikhs"...

Tell me, who do you have less respect for, followers of other religions, or atheists?

[Aeson]

You are aware that something like twenty percent of Americans still oppose interracial marriage, right? They haven't gone away, they're just being quiet--possibly on polls, too.

The downward trend is awesome. A hockey stick in the right direction in an historical perspective. Sure it would be better if those 20% weren't holding onto their ignorance, but at least they are no longer able to dictate their bigotry into law.

Also, the tendency to invoke memories of the Deep South anytime anyone expresses an undesired sentiment is starting to wear thin, I think.

When you start calling all patent clerks morons, expect Einstein to get mentioned.

And I don't think it would have worked at all for black people if black nationalists overseas showed up on the news thrice a week decapitating hostages or raping children. Hushing up is not going to work for this kind of PR problem.

No one is hushing up terrorist attacks. They are pointing out the ignorance and bigotry of people who view those attacks as somehow representative of all Muslims. Which you might view as "hushing up" ... but is really just being a decent human being.

How often do you go browsing through Nation of Islam websites to refute their stuff about your being engineered by a mad scientist, whitey?

I fail to see how that is relevant in any way to what you quoted.

[Sava]

What is it about devoutly religious folks and shitstainery? They often seem to go together.

Imran and maybe Nikolai are the only non-shitstain religionistas that frequent this board, it seems

forgive me if I'm forgetting someone, those are the only two examples that come to mind

Jon Miller seems to want to have it both ways... being a shitstain while pretending he's not

[Aeson]

I don't think there's anything terrible about Elok or Jon. Neither of them have any malicious intent, quite the opposite. Where I disagree with them I would say they are misguided.

[Jon Miller]

Tell me, who do you have less respect for, followers of other religions, or atheists?

I think that many Jews and Muslims follow God better than many Christians (and I recognise and acknowledge that we all follow the same God).

I don't have much respect at all for the 'religious' beliefs of new atheists (the Dawkins variety). They are ignorant at the level of Bob Jone's Christians (or Wiccans) and don't even have the excuse that believers have of following tradition.

JM

[I AM MOBIUS]

Yes, but they believe in 'the same God' in such vastly different ways - surely one of these belief systems must be the true path, and the others fakes? What makes you think that your belief system is not the fake one?

What about Buddhists, Sikhs and Hindus then? With their different gods? What about the Church of Scientology, what do you think of them?

Also, how can an atheist have a religious belief? That's basically absurd.

[Sava]

I don't think there's anything terrible about Elok or Jon. Neither of them have any malicious intent, quite the opposite. Where I disagree with them I would say they are misguided.

I'm a bit more black and white on the subject. Either you are a tolerant person treating people with patience and kindness, or you're not. It's that simple. I read Elok's statements in particular. While I wouldn't say he's David Duke, he certainly seems to be more compatible with that sort of crew than with civil society.

Jon Miller just seems to have a screw loose. I'm legitimately confused with him. He's always seemed like a good guy in the past, though.

I think he just does a bad job of communicating clearly in plain language. He seems to constantly contradict himself.

[Jon Miller]

Yes, "Don't rape the innocent virgin like this - rape her like this instead."
OR

"If you want to kill one of your slaves, don't kill him outright, but condemn him to a cruel and lingering death"

God impressed on me that rape is wrong, how can we fit this into how we live life? Hmm... it isn't rape if they are married... I will give that instruction.

God impressed on me that slavery is wrong. Well, our current economic system has wealthy people getting richer and richer and others becoming their servants due to being in debt. If they weren't their servants, how would they eat? If people weren't allow to have servants, how could an economic system exist? Hmm, maybe if everything got reset after some significant time, let's say two generations (50 years), and let's say that servants could not be treated poorly. The reset couldn't just be freedom because otherwise the people would get back into debt and have to become servants again, so the reset would have to be a reset of wealth and a cancellation of debt.

Of course, the fact that Israel entirely failed on the latter point was one of the main reasons the OT prophets (and Christ) repeatedly condemned Israel. It wasn't due to sexual morality or similar things. It was due to economic injustice and not worshiping God.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Yes, but they believe in 'the same God' in such vastly different ways - surely one of these belief systems must be the true path, and the others fakes? What makes you think that your belief system is not the fake one?

How could I have a belief system and not think it was the correct one and that the others were, in some way, misguided or mistaken.

That includes 'universalist' belief systems like Unitarians and most definitely atheists.

You think that all religious people are hugely mistaken and completely wrong, while atheists are completely right. I think that most religious people have a few mistakes (and in some cases, minor ones) and are partially right, and even atheists (of the humanist variety) are not completely wrong.

I also acknowledge that I have a few mistakes in my belief system and am seeking to improve it. Obviously I have the best belief system as I can, but I expect that there are people out there who have better belief systems.

JM

[Sava]

God impressed on me that rape is wrong

See. This bugs me. You needed "God" to "impress" this upon you?

WTF man. Rape is wrong. You shouldn't need a god to tell you this.

[Jon Miller]

Some modern Hindus seem to be much closer to Christian views of God than I would expect based on my historical reading. This of course makes sense since Hinduism is a syncretic religion.

Sikhism is, from a critical perspective, an amalgamation of/response to Islam/Christianity and Hinduism so it is also 'close'.

JM

[Jon Miller]

See. This bugs me. You needed "God" to "impress" this upon you?

WTF man. Rape is wrong. You shouldn't need a god to tell you this.

Throughout most of human history people didn't seem to think this though...

JM

[Jon Miller]

I do not have any Sikh friends really, only a (former) friend of a friend. But I find the religion interesting. From Wiki:

One God: - There is only one God (Waheguru), who has infinite qualities and names. God is Creator and Sustainer - all that you see around you is His creation. He is everywhere, in everything. He is without birth or death, and has existed before Creation and will exist forever. Sikhism does not acknowledge an anthropomorphic God. This is true to the extent than one can interpret Him as the Universe Itself.[citation needed] Sikhism also does not acknowledge the belief of a Personal God[citation needed], as does Christianity. Instead, God is usually interpreted as being unfathomable, yet not unknowable.
Reincarnation, karma and salvation: – The journey of the soul is governed by the deeds and actions that we perform during our lives.
Remember God: Only by keeping the Creator in your mind at all times will you make progress in your spiritual evolution.
Humanity (brotherhood): All human beings are equal. We are sons and daughters of Waheguru.
Uphold moral values: Defend, protect and fight for the rights of all creatures, in particular your fellow human beings.
Personal sacrifice: Be prepared to give your life for all supreme principles: Guru Tegh Bahadur died for others.
Many paths lead to God: – Sikhs are not special; they are not the chosen people of God. Simply calling yourself a Sikh does not bring you salvation. Members of all religions have the same right to liberty as Sikhs.
Positive attitude toward life: "Charhdi Kala" – Always have a positive, optimistic and buoyant view of life. God is there – He will be your help.
Disciplined life: Upon baptism, a Sikh must wear the Five Ks and perform strict recital of the five prayers (gurbanis).[citation needed]
No special worship days: Sikhs do not believe that any particular day is holier than any other.
Conquer the five thieves: It is every Sikh's duty to defeat these five thieves: Pride, Anger, Greed, Attachment, and Lust, known collectively as P.A.G.A.L.
Attack with Five Weapons: Contentment (Santokh), Charity (Dan), Kindness (Daya), Positive Energy (Chardi Kala), Humility (Nimarta).
Having premarital sexual or extramarital relations: Sikhs are encouraged to be faithful to their spouse. All forms of adultery are discouraged.[7]
Not son of God: The Gurus were not, in the Christian sense, “Sons of God”[dubious – discuss]. Sikhism says we are all God's children.
All are welcome: Members of all religions can visit gurdwaras (Sikh temples) if they observe local rules: cover the head, no shoes, no smoking in the main hall.
Multi-level approach: Sikhism recognizes the concept of a multi-level approach to achieving your target as a disciple of the faith. For example, sahajdhari "slow adopters" are Sikhs who have not donned the full Five Ks but are still Sikhs regardless.
Note: The Punjabi language does not have a gender for God. Unfortunately, when translating, the real meaning cannot be properly conveyed without using "Him," "His," "He," "Brotherhood," "Him or Her," et cetera; furthermore, this distorts the meaning by giving the impression that God is masculine, which is not the message in the original script. The reader must allow for this every time these words are used. It is often the case that rather than taking a gender definition, God is simply conveyed as "Omnipotent Being" rather than God, thus conveying the correct perceptual image.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Throughout most of human history people didn't seem to think this though...

JM

Holy crap! So what you're essentially saying is that, unless you have specific commandments from a 'higher being', you would be open to the idea of committing rape, murder etc? That you have no free will or self-awareness to realise right from wrong!?

Also, do you consider your wife a possession, or someone who is your equal in all things in terms of rights etc?