Go, Europe, Go!

[Serb]

For not killing his own people? Seems harsh.

He is responsible for deaths of dozens of millions of Soviet people, caused by collapse of the USSR.

[Dr Strangelove]

As much as I despise many aspects of the American system, it is infinitely preferable to living under Tsarism, Leninist Bolshevism, Stalinist state capitalism, post-Stalinist state capitalism or gangster/kleptocrat state capitalism.

Yes, there was state racism and almost institutionalized repression of the working classes, but even during the McCarthy era or during the worst of the Cold War, the American government never managed to kill as many of its OWN citizens as the U.S.S.R. .

Does the Civil War count?

I don't think I've ever seen figures estimating the total number of American Indians killed by wars, forced relocations, reservations that were essentially death camps, etc. If they did, they didn't manage to disseminate the data. What we do know is that by 1900 there were only 250,000 left of the millions who inhabited what became the continental United States in 1790. It was estimated that about 900,000 indians were living in the US in 1790, but that was only the current territory in 1790 and it made no claims at accurately estimating the numbers in the Northwest Territory and the Mississippi Territory. There was also systematic violence against Chinese immigrants and Mexican-Americans living in areas annexed by the US in the 19th century, violence which while not strictly conducted by the government was condoned by the government.
I guess if there are no figures it just doesn't matter.
Would the murder of Filipinos during the American occupation count? I remember there wa an American general who actually bragged about exterminating the entire population of one of the islands.

[Kidlicious]

I was born when Brezhnev ruled the country.

Sure, for you Gorby is he is your doggi after all. For us Gorbachev is a traitor and a criminal.

He just knew your system was going to colapse, and you needed help.

[Serb]

With such "helping friends" one doesn't need "harming enemies". I hardly can call a hand which brings fire to a dynamite a helping hand.

[N35t0r]

How it's technically "yes", if you have to pay for the education, as you have written below?

Because public education is free, it's only really bad in most places (especially in places which need it the most).

So, you have to pay for the education.

No, but given the current state of public education, its one of the best investments for your kids' future.

But how a society where a certain amount of people don't have access to education, just because they are not rich enough to pay for it? Do you honestly believe that kids a differ by birth? That a kid born in a poor family is dumber, than a kid born in a rich family?

What? I'm just telling it like it is. I'd love it if public health and education were good quality, but the government prefers to spend money on 'social plans' and other populist stuff, since it gives them more votes, rather than in fixing the education system (which doesn't pay of fin less than 4 years, so it's useless for gaining votes).

Kids are kids. They are the same. And if one society fails to provide to all of them the same access to education to open their talents, I don't see how such society could claim it's more advanced in terms of striving to progress. For me, the society, which gives free education to EVERY kids is WAY more advanced and WAY more progress-striving, than a capitalist World where human society is polarized by birth.


You know, the main problem why Yanks don't understand us (ok, me in particularly) is that they have never lived in a different society, except their beloved Capitalism.

I have lived.

That's the main difference between us - they have no f*cking clue what they are talking about, they just repeat laughable stamps.

I was born in the USSR, I was 14 when it's collapsed in 1991. Since that moment 23 years have passed. And I can compare a Capitalist society we are living now in Russia, with the Soviet society we had back then.

And you know what? Despite its all drawbacks and some absolutely stupid things, that Soviet society was MUCH, incredibly MUCH more FAIR and JUST, than the Capitalism, even considering all its drawbacks. REALLY.

I'll have to defer to you on that, but I've been to cuba, and having a great education and being able to go to university for free is not much use if you become an engineer only to work as a gas station clerk because 15 dollars per week in tips lets you live better than working as an engineer (if you can find a job, because most industries on the island are not functioning). I'm sure the embargo has a lot to do with this, but Fidel's iron-fist rule is mostly to blame.

Oh, and then you have some amazing parks and facilities which only the government's top cadres can use... Very communist .

This is how you pay your tribute to your master (US of A). If you consider paying a tribute a smart thing, well, keep defaulting then. I'm sure the advisers from IMF already shown you the way.

lol, keep defaulting? That period was one of the few periods that saw real economic growth (unlike the past decade, which involved mostly idle capacity). A lot of what was done after '95 -'98 was clearly a mistake though. But hindsight is 20/20.

Well, that's not so simple I think.
Paying in full would basically make former lenders you've already repayed at lower rates (through a mutually agreed compromise) feel like w@nkers.

Maybe. but they've been getting paid for a while already, and they didn't have to spend millions of dollars in legal fees and publicity.

Not only that, they could file for full re-emburshment which would basically blow up the whole deal in the air and thoroughly ruin the economy.

Not necessarily, some people argue that, since the payment would be done under duress, it wouldn't trigger the clause. In any case, it expires in December.

That's why I said the ruling was at best moroning, at worse it deliberately perpetuates something that could be resolved now.

While I agree with this, we're talking about a ruling in a highly corporativist country. Why should we expect any different?

BTW I pass by a statue of bolivar (I think he's called) on my way to work
Not an argentinian but a symbol for latin american independence I think!

He liberated the area from Venezuela to Perú (the latter together with San Martín, who arrived by ship from Chile). San Martín did likewise for the south of South America.

Bolivar then proceded to try and centralize power in Gran Colombia (composed of modern-day Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, Ecuador and Perú) away from a federalist model, and impose a presidency-for-life, with the president designating his successor (him being president at the time).

(I really like your other two famous argentinians. maradona and che

Maradona's only remarkable attribute is (was) his football prowess.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

this whole Russian thing... it's getting a little old and or boring.

[pchang]

Well, that's not so simple I think.
Paying in full would basically make former lenders you've already repayed at lower rates (through a mutually agreed compromise) feel like w@nkers.
Not only that, they could file for full re-emburshment which would basically blow up the whole deal in the air and thoroughly ruin the economy.

That's why I said the ruling was at best moroning, at worse it deliberately perpetuates something that could be resolved now.

BTW I pass by a statue of bolivar (I think he's called) on my way to work
Not an argentinian but a symbol for latin american independence I think!
(I really like your other two famous argentinians. maradona and che

There is an expiration date to the "better deal" clause. Argentina just needs to stall this out until 2015.

[dannubis]

this whole Russian thing... it's getting a little old and or boring.

I know right?

And you'd expect him to hit a nail right once in a while after due process of elimination but it just doesn't happen.

[Bereta_Eder]

Maybe. but they've been getting paid for a while already, and they didn't have to spend millions of dollars in legal fees and publicity.

Interesting. Are the legal fees the loansharks had
to pay that much?
Argentina paid them too I'd imagine?

Not necessarily, some people argue that, since the payment would be done under duress, it wouldn't trigger the clause. In any case, it expires in December.

I see.
Nevertheless the rest few of the lenders could still press for their full re-embursement, so the possibility of another "virtual" default could still be there?
Or Argentina would just pay them in full then.

While I agree with this, we're talking about a ruling in a highly corporativist country. Why should we expect any different?

Because it is stoopid and ill serves even the goals of the present venerated finance system.

He liberated the area from Venezuela to Perú (the latter together with San Martín, who arrived by ship from Chile). San Martín did likewise for the south of South America.

Bolivar then proceded to try and centralize power in Gran Colombia (composed of modern-day Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, Ecuador and Perú) away from a federalist model, and impose a presidency-for-life, with the president designating his successor (him being president at the time).

Well, some minor flaws of character here and there....
Thanks for the lesson (from a certain point of view I'm sure

[N35t0r]

Interesting. Are the legal fees the loansharks had
to pay that much?
Argentina paid them too I'd imagine?

yup.

I see.
Nevertheless the rest few of the lenders could still press for their full re-embursement, so the possibility of another "virtual" default could still be there?
Or Argentina would just pay them in full then.

You mean the rest of the holdouts? Yeah, but they're still a small percentage.

Because it is stoopid and ill serves even the goals of the present venerated finance system.

Eh, I don't think so. Having judged against would have been worse in this regard IMO.

Well, some minor flaws of character here and there....
Thanks for the lesson (from a certain point of view I'm sure

Well, he did fight in favour of emancipation from Spain; but I'm generally against idolizing people. There's lots of 'remarkable' figures who did some very important/positive things, but that doesn't justify dismissing any downsides/flaws.

[Bereta_Eder]

It's fine not idolyzing people but if one focuses on the one negative characteristic they have maybe they are a little bit prejudiced
Of course I don't know much about it (read almost nothing).

But hey, even columbus thought he had discovered India untill he died and noone could convince him otherwise.

(although I don't know wether you admire columbus or you hate him? )

[N35t0r]

It's fine not idolyzing people but if one focuses on the one negative characteristic they have maybe they are a little bit prejudiced
Of course I don't know much about it (read almost nothing).

I'm guessing you knew the good things about him

But hey, even columbus thought he had discovered India untill he died and noone could convince him otherwise.

(although I don't know wether you admire columbus or you hate him? )

Hate? Nah, that takes too much effort. It's also useless to hate someone dead, there's little you can do about it.

He, however, was a bit ruthless when dealing with the natives (but then, who wasn't at that time?)

[Bereta_Eder]

“So avoid using the word ‘very’ because it’s lazy. A man is not very tired, he is exhausted. Don’t use very sad, use morose. Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women - and, in that endeavor, laziness will not do. It also won’t do in your essays.”
― N.H. Kleinbaum, Dead Poets Society

I guess I could have used "not liked" instead of hated but meh

I read columbus ship log many years ago.
Now I'm about to start che's motorcycle diaries (I've already seen the film)

[Dr Strangelove]

He is responsible for deaths of dozens of millions of Soviet people, caused by collapse of the USSR.

Shouldn't you be blaming Yeltsin? It was Yeltsin who rallied the protestors in Moscow and who governed Russia during the years of its greatest losses. It was Yeltsin who took the advice of GOP advisors and sold everything then did nothing while people starved and died.

[Ben Kenobi]

Kids are kids. They are the same. And if one society fails to provide to all of them the same access to education to open their talents, I don't see how such society could claim it's more advanced in terms of striving to progress. For me, the society, which gives free education to EVERY kids is WAY more advanced and WAY more progress-striving, than a capitalist World where human society is polarized by birth.

If education is free, what value is it?