Ashers Baking Company: 'Gay cake' row could end up in court

[Sava]

[Ben Kenobi]

At least my attacks are against an individual that has demonstrated that he deserves it by his actions.

So you're saying it's ok to make personal attacks on someone you hate? Interesting.

You do it to an entire segment of the population based on sexual orientation with no consideration of the individual. (definition of bigot)

Sin is sin. It doesn't matter who you are. If you commit sinful acts, you are a sinner.

Who does that make the monster Ben?

For stating that sin is sin?

And feel free to find the post where I whined, I'd love to see it.

You whined when I outed your wife as a feminist.

If it's because someone targeted my family, that would be different. I really don't think saying saying nobody would have sex with you ranks with insulting someone's wife.

So you'd be okay if I commented about your dry spells and wouldn't see that as an insult directed at your wife?

If you ever find one, I promise I won't insult her. But insulting a figment of someones imagination is fair game.

I said one thing about your wife. One thing, and you've hated me ever since. It wasn't even intended as an insult, simply my understanding of things.

[Nikolai]

Sin is sin. The Bible and the church teaches that sex outside marriage is sin. That is whether it's gay sex or straight sex. One is not better than the other.

Sin is also more than the sexual sins. Sin is to not treat others well, for example. You dishonor your maker by breaking that commandment. However, Christians are called to tell the world about what is sin and ask the world to repent. As redeemed sinners to other sinners, who all can be redeemed. I am a sinner. Ben is a sinner. Rah is a sinner. We all are.

[Ming]

True enough... But Benie Boy is selective in the sinners he goes after. EVERYBODY SINS, but he focuses on gays... because he is a bigot

[Jon Miller]

True enough... But Benie Boy is selective in the sinners he goes after. EVERYBODY SINS, but he focuses on gays... because he is a bigot

Usually you do that when you want to say 'well, I do YYYY, but at least I don't do XXXX, so I am OK.'

JM

[kentonio]

You whined when I outed your wife as a feminist.

How the **** do you 'out' someone as a feminist? Any woman who isn't a feminist probably doesn't know what feminist actually means. For that matter, any man who isn't a feminist is largely a ****.

feminist
ˈfɛmənɪst/
noun

1. The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

[PLATO]

That definition pretty much explains why Ben thinks it is a bad thing.

[molly bloom]

How does this explain the pre-Christian Greeks and Romans who also did not believe homosexuality was a sexual orientation?

You're missing the point. They (pre-Christian Romans and Greeks) didn't believe male-male sexuality was sinful- only that a certain role was unsuitable for free men. And this wasn't always a hard and fast rule.

It was an acceptable form of sexuality, but all these men would be heterosexual

There wasn't 'heterosexual' 'bisexual' or l'esbian' or 'gay'. There were acts, and free citizens (men) were the tops- as it were. Slaves and women (regardless of status) weren't.

[Sava]

l'esbian

what do you call a french rug muncher?

[molly bloom]

what do you call a french rug muncher?

Gazon Maudit.

[Sava]

it was a misplaced apostrophe joke

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sin is sin. The Bible and the church teaches that sex outside marriage is sin. That is whether it's gay sex or straight sex. One is not better than the other.

Marriage as recognized by whom? The state or the church?

In addition, why does it teach this? What is the purpose of it? These questions are far better to ask than slavishly following rules in Scripture just because they are there. This, btw, is one of the big reasons why theology is useful, even while some literal-types seem to think its "overthinking" things.

You're missing the point. They (pre-Christian Romans and Greeks) didn't believe male-male sexuality was sinful- only that a certain role was unsuitable for free men. And this wasn't always a hard and fast rule.

Actually you are missing the point. You are answering a question you wished Elok would have asked rather than the one he actually did ask.

[Nikolai]

Imran, for a Christian the Bible is authoriative. The Bible tells us that God created us as man and woman and the church has on the basis of Scripture and the theology derived thereof always regarded marriage as a thing between one man and one woman. If you read Scripture, you will see plenty of proof this is God's ordained institution. Note for example that while men in the Bible marry several women, God warns against it. Gay relationships are not okay in God's eyes, and marriage between two men or two women cannot be blessed from a Christian point of view. Society is for all, so I support a way for gay people to get economical and legal security. This is called civil unions in English I believe.

As for "slavishly following rules in Scripture just because they are there", that is not a way for a Christian to think of it! I thought you were a Christian, but perhaps I has misundertood? In any case, short version: The Bible as we know it is the work of God, through people. He made sure what is in there is what He wants us to know about Him and His will. Anything we learn from the Bible should be validated through other Bible passages. Christians are the servants/slaves of Christ, so to speak, and we try to live as He has ordained as far as we manage. Then, when we eventually fall, as we all do sometimes, He has grace and forgiveness for us in waiting. But living as a Christian means trying to live according to His will. Not as a way to gain salvation, for that there is nothing we can do, it is grace and grace alone. But Christ calls us to live a holy life. To purify ourselves. This is called sanctification and is a life long process. In Christ we are saved, without works, but through sanctification God works in us to make us holy and use us as an example to the world.

A couple Bible verses, if you are interested:

Phillippians 2.12-13:

12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Galatians 5.22-23(note the verses preceding it, if you choose to look it up):

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Romans 6.1-2(on why a Christian can't go on sinning without working against it):

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

1st Thessaloniki 4.3-8(note verse 7 in particular):

3It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

I could go on for a long time, there are plenty of verses to take from.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran, for a Christian the Bible is authoriative.

The Bible is also, while divinely inspired, written by men. Who, are flawed and have their own biases and preconditions. St. Paul, as well as in plenty of places in the Old Testament, slavery was not spoken against. St. Paul attempted to more humanize the institution than it had been before, but he told slaves to obey their masters and didn't tell the masters to free their slaves, but to love them. St. Paul lived in an era were slavery was essentially ingrained and even a thought of freeing all the slaves would have been unthinkable. So God gave His revelation as it could be understood in that age. John Calvin speaks about this in his Theory of Accommodation (where he also refers to Genesis as God's babytalk). As we are ready for greater understanding, God provides it for us. Read the Old Testament as a complete narrative and you'll see greater and greater understanding of God, from someone who seems very harsh in Genesis at times to Jesus Christ. The Spirit has been sent to continue to the process, while, of course remembering what God has told us through Scripture and through the Tradition of His people.

A nitpick - God is the only one who is authoritative and He uses Scripture to attain His purposes, which mainly are concerned with the reconciliation of all Creation to Himself (as began with God the Son and will be fully realized in the Second Coming when Heaven and Earth are swept away to be replaced by a New Heaven and a New Earth and God will live with His people once more).

One last point. You are not Catholic, nor Orthodox. If you give such a high level to simply the written words in Scripture, then why do you allow non-adultery related divorce in your church?

[Nikolai]

Written by men, but controlled by God what is included or not. It's called divine inspiration. As for Paul, remember Paul was clear that all humans are equal before God, and asked a slave holder to treat his slave as a brother in Christ.

Revelation is closed. There is no additions to the Bible. Prophesy is a gift God still gives, but it is clear from Scripture it has to agree with what is already revealed in the Bible. And sure, society change, but the core of Christianity does not change. Culture does. Some parts of culture today is clearly not in agreement with Scripture. Some parts are more in agreement with Scripture than was before. Slavery is out, due to Paul's teachings. Paul also taught not to rebell against the government, and slavery was changed from the inside of society's fabric.

As for your last point, I am not sure which church you think I belong to? Divorce is a serious matter however. It should not be taken lightly, and should only be done as a last resort. Adultery is a valid reason for it. Abuse would be another. However, the question of remarrying is another one alltogether.