Life support forced on pregnant woman

[DirtyMartini]

very good -- you immediately hit all the unwinnable, uncivil, don't-even-go-there talking points of any abortion debate. Thanks but no thanks.

[Ben Kenobi]

you immediately hit all the unwinnable, uncivil, don't-even-go-there talking points of any abortion debate. Thanks but no thanks.

I think the point is well taken. You ask, Who should pay, who should care for the child? If he's willing to relinquish guardianship, then he no longer gets to make the decision. In, short, his options are, "shoot his wife, walk away or look after her and his child". I think the third is the preferable option.

[DirtyMartini]

You ask, Who should pay, who should care for the child?

Not really the spirit of what I was asking, but, then, you already knew that.

[notyoueither]

All of it.

He's an MD. Different cells are affected differently by oxygen deprivation. He's saying there is not yet a brain there to be damaged.

Try again.

I'd be more concerned by the inbalances caused in the mother that would affect a normal hormonal environment for the fetus.

[Guynemer]

There is a brain at 14 weeks, just not much of one.

[molly bloom]

Are you willing to kill someone who may be perfectly fine on the suspicion that they may have a handicap?

Good grief. It's all 'ME! ME! ME!' with you, isn't it ?

Ahh, which is why the life of a disabled person is worth 3/5ths of an able person.

Yeah, you really think a lot of yourself, don't you ?

[Dr Strangelove]

Dr. Strangelove needs to brush up on his embryology.



The unborn child at 14 weeks. Why not simply wait 10 weeks and then deliver?

The fact that the surface form looks generally human doen't mean there are functioning neurons. Quickening doesn't occur until 16 to 18 weeks.

[Dr Strangelove]

There is a brain at 14 weeks, just not much of one.

Are there functional synapses and action potentials? The main reason that the brain is so sensitive to hypoxia is that it has to continually maintain an ion gradient over a large surface area. The ion pumps are strictly aerobic. Without oxygen they cease to function, the gradient is lost and can't be re-established. I'm not sure that the neurons in the brain are functional at 14 weeks.

[DirtyMartini]

He's an MD. He's saying there is not yet a brain there to be damaged.

Thereis a brain there to be damaged. The neural tube closes at 3-4 weeks; at that point there is a brain.

I will admit that it is unclear how sensitive the brain is to ischemia at that stage of development, which on re-read is the point Dr. Strangelove was making.

All of which is beside the point and I apologize for getting sidetracked. Whatever you believe regarding abortion or laws regarding patient autonomy, if you (generic you, no nye specifically) have any empathy, you've got to feel for this guy: he believes his wife would not want to be sustained like this. He wants to respect her wishes. Additionally, he is faced with the prospect of raising a child on his own. He is likely worried about the impact of his wife's condition on that child. He must be pro-choice. While it would in no way be an easy decision to withdraw support from his wife or his unborn child, had this happened a few hundred miles away, he would at least have the option of respecting her wishes. The fact that abortion is legal, even in Texas, but that withdrawing support from his wife because she is pregnant is not has to be doubly infuriating. The fact that he'll likely end up bankrupt is insult to injury.

[DirtyMartini]

All of which assumes that he's not the one who tried to off her in the first place.

[regexcellent]

Also, double taxation isn't really a compelling argument. After all, if your state has a sales tax, you are facing double taxation every time you buy anything (your money has been taxed through income taxes). The 'wasteful spending at end of life' argument is a far better one to use.

Wow you're an idiot HTH

If you consider sales tax double taxation (it isn't, and I want you to try to figure out why but I'm not sure you're capable), then estate tax is triple taxation.

[Ban Kenobi]

Sales taxes can be considered "double taxation" when you compare a jurisdiction with sales tax to a jurisdiction without it, but that's it. So when residents of Washington cross over into Oregon to take advantage of the fact that there's no sales tax in Oregon, that's an example of a distortion caused by a sales tax.

[Aeson]

Whether something is double taxation or not isn't really important. The rate at which you're taxed and for what activities is important.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are there functional synapses and action potentials? The main reason that the brain is so sensitive to hypoxia is that it has to continually maintain an ion gradient over a large surface area. The ion pumps are strictly aerobic. Without oxygen they cease to function, the gradient is lost and can't be re-established. I'm not sure that the neurons in the brain are functional at 14 weeks.

I have papers on FAS/E that show that neurological damage early in the term will hinder further development. Think of it as steps on the ladder. If certain steps are crooked, that weakens the whole ladder. The problem here - is that the tests haven't been done and if done, wouldn't be able to show the degree of damage. There's really very little difference between this case and the case of alcohol and substance abuse during pregnancy.

But research in Fisk’s laboratory (then at Imperial College in London) was making him uneasy about that answer. It showed that fetuses as young as 18 weeks react to an invasive procedure with a spike in stress hormones and a shunting of blood flow toward the brain — a strategy, also seen in infants and adults, to protect a vital organ from threat.

Would seem to indicate that even if the response isn't completely there, it's not out of the question that damage could very well result at 14. We don't say that drinking prior to 14 weeks is ok.

[Ben Kenobi]

The fact that the surface form looks generally human doen't mean there are functioning neurons. Quickening doesn't occur until 16 to 18 weeks.

Are you missing the veins on the inside? It's not just surface functioning.