This Is Why Poor People's Bad Decisions Make Perfect Sense

[kentonio]

Correlation implies causation says what?

Shouldn't you be off somewhere kicking a tramp to death for sport or something?

[Hauldren Collider]

Increasing labor participation rate

Not sure how that's relevant, though?

[KrazyHorse]

You two are too depressing to talk to. I'm gonna pop a few happy pills and go write.

It's depressing to think that people make choices which have effects on their lives?

[kentonio]

@HC, I don't really see what point you're aiming for? First you seemed to be trying to deny that people with poor parents tend to stay poor. Is that still your assertion?

[Dauphin]

If your parents are self made wealthy, chances are they are intelligent. Consequently chances are you are intelligent and will more likely get a good job and income to be self made wealthy too.

We need intelligence redistribution policies to tackle the cause of wealth inequality.

[KrazyHorse]

Shouldn't you be off somewhere kicking a tramp to death for sport or something?

So instead of rationally discussing this under a reasonable framework you'd rather jump to ad hominems.

At expectations.

The attribution I'd apply here would be that intergenerational elasticity of income derives from 4 sets of factors:

1) genetic inheritability of valuable characteristics (general intelligence, adaptability, conscientiousness)
2) non-genetic transfer of similar traits + knowledge (due to parental quality)
3) same thing, but from peer effects
4) direct contribution of money/connections

Then you should ask ”which of these things can be remedied by policy". You are unlikely to change 1 or 2. You have some chance of reducing the disadvantages poor children receive from 3 and 4.

[kentonio]

So instead of rationally discussing this under a reasonable framework you'd rather jump to ad hominems.

Nah, I'll discuss it. I was only playing.

The attribution I'd apply here would be that intergenerational elasticity of income derives from 4 sets of factors:

1) genetic inheritability of valuable characteristics (general intelligence, adaptability, conscientiousness)
2) non-genetic transfer of similar traits + knowledge (due to parental quality)
3) same thing, but from peer effects
4) direct contribution of money/connections

Then you should ask ”which of these things can be remedied by policy". You are unlikely to change 1 or 2. You have some chance of reducing the disadvantages poor children receive from 3 and 4.

If number 3 is the important one for me, although I don't know if I'd refer to peers there. Finding ways to introduce aspiration and understanding of what opportunities are available that can lead to an improvement in status are both critical. Also trying to find a way to smooth out the all too often steep steps that often prevent people from improving themselves.

As the example in the article showed, it's all too easy for people to end up in a poor trap where the opportunity simply isn't there to improve their situation. For me that is why it's absolutely essential to have a solid security blanket that ensures people don't slip too low down the economic ladder, because all too often then the opportunity just isn't there to recover from that.

[Ban Kenobi]

While there are certainly exceptions, doesn't it seem more reasonable that people are generally responsible for their situation? Or do you think that whether you are rich or poor is due to some great random number generator in the sky?

Are you suggesting that the poor chose to be poor or are you suggesting that they're too stupid to take care of themselves?

[Hauldren Collider]

Nice DL, gribbler

[Ban Kenobi]

Plz explain how you would mitigate poverty in light of your discovery that the poor make themselves poor. Will you:
1. Yell at them and tell them to take personal responsibility
2. Give them cash under the assumption that they'll waste it because poor people are poor for a reason, damn it
3. Cut government benefits and tell them if they don't like it they should stop pretending they can't earn a middle class income if they try
4. Cut the minimum wage so they can work two jobs for less money than before

[regexcellent]

5. All of the above

wait not number 2

[Dr Strangelove]

I mean, it's just outrageously silly. Why were the kids who were born during the great depression not all poor after growing up? Seriously. I'm not saying they became Bill Gates but really? Your parents have to be rich?

My Dad got an engineering degree on the GI bill after he was discharged from the army in 1945, that's how he escaped poverty. A huge number of GIs did the same.

[Ben Kenobi]

When I got pregnant the first time, I was living in a weekly motel.

For those of you playing at home.

'Pregnant the first time'. Is she married? No? Then that's a big reason why she's poor.

'Weekly motel'. I see weekly motels for 250/week here. That's 1k a month. Again - this is why she's poor. You could rent a house for that amount of money today.

'I had a minifridge with no freezer and a microwave. I was on WIC. I ate peanut butter from the jar and frozen burritos because they were 12/$2.'

Ok, so she's got a fridge and microwave. Why didn't you buy canned stuff? You can warm it up in the microwave.

We have learned not to try too hard to be middle-class. It never works out well and always makes you feel worse for having tried and failed yet again.

Cooking is not really that hard - if you've got the infrastructure. Really it's not. It's pretty cheap, but you're right - the preparation adds to the expense. All you really need is one good sized pot and a freezer with a fridge. I've lived in a motel before - and it's an expensive lifestyle if you don't have a fridge. However - I also wasn't paying rent because I was working for the motel owner. I wasn't spending 1k/month to live there.

Junk food is a pleasure that we are allowed to have; why would we give that up? We have very few of them.

Junk food is expensive. Again - you can buy cheap and nourishing food.

The closest Planned Parenthood to me is three hours. That's a lot of money in gas. Lots of women can't afford that, and even if you live near one you probably don't want to be seen coming in and out in a lot of areas.

Lets do some math here. 3 hours = 200 miles. At 30/gallon that's about 15 gallons there and back. at 3/gallon that's about 50 dollars.

You're telling me that there are people who own a car, pay 1k/month in rent that can't afford 50 dollars to drive 3 hours? I call bull****.

We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do.

Again - 'urges'. Remember what she said about junk food?

Convenience food is just that. And we are not allowed many conveniences.

Convenience food is damned expensive!

Especially since the Patriot Act passed, it's hard to get a bank account.

No, it's not hard to get a bank account. The problem isn't that you can't get one - the problem is that you're not willing to spend 50 bucks to set one up. I've done it. I've done it for people so that they could get it set up. Not having a bank account means you are paying poor people taxes - on absolutely everything. You're getting raped. Pay 50 bucks - set up an account.

But without one, you spend a lot of time figuring out where to cash a check and get money orders to pay bills.

Not only that - you're getting raped on both of these services. Pay 50 bucks to your Wells Fargo and set up an account.

Most motels now have a no-credit-card-no-room policy. I wandered around SF for five hours in the rain once with nearly a thousand dollars on me and could not rent a room even if I gave them a $500 cash deposit and surrendered my cell phone to the desk to hold as surety.

This is bull****. I've rented a room with cash before. Also - if you have 1k on you, you have enough money to set up a bank account. It is not difficult to do so, and it is a major reason why you are poor.

Nobody gives enough thought to depression. You have to understand that we know that we will never not feel tired. We will never feel hopeful. We will never get a vacation.

Yes, depression is a *****. I've been there - I've had that feeling of hopeless crushing despair. It can be overcome. .

We know that the very act of being poor guarantees that we will never not be poor.

You're right. You're spending 1k a month on your rent, you just got pregnant without a husband. You buy convenience foods (because you deserve it). You don't have a bank account. These are all choices that cost you money. You're poor because you make bad economic choices.

We don't apply for jobs because we know we can't afford to look nice enough to hold them.

There are organizations specifically designed to help women with professional clothes. They are free. They take an appointment - but yes, I have worked with a lady to help her get off the streets. She was much like you. And goodwill does have professional clothes if you look around. I'm not rich myself, but I have a whole rack of nice shirts and pants that are 'ready to go' if need be.

What I found is that even the 'homeless lady' had far more clothes than I had. Far more.

I would make a super legal secretary, but I've been turned down more than once because I "don't fit the image of the firm," which is a nice way of saying "gtfo, pov."

How many tats do you have?

I am not beautiful. I have missing teeth and skin that looks like it will when you live on B12 and coffee and nicotine and no sleep. Beauty is a thing you get when you can afford it, and that's how you get the job that you need in order to be beautiful. There isn't much point trying.

Are you willing to work as a maid? There are plenty of jobs that don't require customer contact.

"Free" only exists for rich people. It's great that there's a bowl of condoms at my school, but most poor people will never set foot on a college campus. We don't belong there. There's a clinic?

Christ. Condoms you can pick up at the convenience store.

Great! There's still a copay. We're not going. Besides, all they'll tell you at the clinic is that you need to see a specialist, which seriously? Might as well be located on Mars for how accessible it is. "Low-cost" and "sliding scale" sounds like "money you have to spend" to me, and they can't actually help you anyway.

See that little box beside the ho hos and ding dongs that you're buying? Yeah, that's contraception. If you can afford ho hos and ding dongs, you can afford contraception.

I smoke. It's expensive. It's also the best option.

Uh, no, no it's not. If you smoke a pack a day, that's a habit that will cost you as much as 10 bucks in some areas depending on where you live. That's 300 bucks a month. Why are you poor? Because you smoke.

It is the only thing I have found that keeps me from collapsing or exploding.

Is it worth 300 bucks a month to you?

I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term.

Yeah, they do. You're poor because you make poor financial decisions. I can already tell that you make about 2k/ month.

I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances

Finances are tough. You have to get your financial house in order so that you can get ahead. It's slow, but on 2k a month - you can make progress fairly quickly.

It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase.

This is wrong thinking. Those 'small pleasures' are robbing your future.

There's a certain pull to live what bits of life you can while there's money in your pocket, because no matter how responsible you are you will be broke in three days anyway. When you never have enough money it ceases to have meaning. I imagine having a lot of it is the same thing.

Money is a tool. Using it well helps you get ahead of the game. You're making 2k a month which puts you well ahead of most others. You aren't poor - you just have bad habits that keep you poor.

I am not asking for sympathy. I am just trying to explain, on a human level, how it is that people make what look from the outside like awful decisions. This is what our lives are like, and here are our defense mechanisms, and here is why we think differently. It's certainly self-defeating, but it's safer. That's all. I hope it helps make sense of it.

Bigger question - why are people who make less than you do per month better off?

[kentonio]

For those of you playing at home.

'Pregnant the first time'. Is she married? No? Then that's a big reason why she's poor.

Oh surprise, the ****ing dip**** didn't even read the bio in the second post.

Her husband served honorably in Fallujah with the USMC and struggled with PTSD, and she has experience in veterans’ issues.

[Ban Kenobi]

I get up at 6AM, go to school (I have a full courseload, but I only have to go to two in-person classes) then work, then I get the kids, then I pick up my husband, then I have half an hour to change and go to Job 2. I get home from that at around 12:30AM, then I have the rest of my classes and work to tend to. I'm in bed by 3.

Has it ever occurred to her that she wouldn't be so poor if she had a husband?