The story of Jesus was made up by the Roman Empire

[Ben Kenobi]

The Armenians were ethnically cleansed by the very late Ottoman Empire, in a paranoid attempt to destroy them before they could rebel. Their religion was only a factor in that the Turks assumed their Christianity would make them disloyal. The Ottomans were mostly a secular-imperial/Turkish-nationalist batch (they kept a tame Caliph with no real powers for centuries), and AFAIK didn't treat us all that badly. Certainly better than we would have gotten from, say, some of the Renaissance popes.

Wow. You're willing to defend the ethnic cleansing of your brethren. Wow, just wow. Do you really care so little, Elok? Personally if someone tried to eradicate the Catholic church anywhere that would make them my enemy forever.

Also, your insistence that Islam is a monolithic wad of hateful psychos is not true to reality. Some, like AQ, are utter ghouls. Others, like the Sufis, are mellow and harmless. Most fall along a spectrum in between. I don't think the RCC is pure evil, either, but you guys do have a very ugly history with us and it won't just wash away.

Your insistance that they are harmless is also not true to reality. Open your eyes, Elok. Islam is not your friend.

[giblets]

Wow. You're willing to defend the ethnic cleansing of your brethren. Wow, just wow. Do you really care so little, Elok? Personally if someone tried to eradicate the Catholic church anywhere that would make them my enemy forever.

How is Elok defending ethnic cleansing?

[Ben Kenobi]

How is Elok defending ethnic cleansing?

He just stated that the regime that engaged in it was 'not that bad', and 'actually treated us well'. Presumably he's referring to Americans and not his brothers overseas. I somehow doubt he'd be so sanguine otherwise.

[Elok]

It's called "having a sense of proportion." Most of the time, Christians under Muslim rule were second-class citizens, but allowed to worship as they pleased. That's significantly better than most non-Catholics did under Catholic rule. As for the Armenians, AFAIK they died because the Turks knew their empire was collapsing and they thought the Armenians would revolt. Their religion was only a factor insofar as the Turks trusted Muslims more than Christians.

[Elok]

For comparison, the original crusade was intended to provide military relief to Byzantium, and did so until the crusaders reached Antioch and a misunderstanding caused a falling-out with Alexios. That's pretty much the one and only positive interaction between our two churches prior to this century, that I know of (and that's ignoring all the looting those crusaders did while they were waiting for passage to Asia). The rest of it was "sheep-stealing" missions, forced conversions, and offers of "help" on the condition of total capitulation. "So, Turks are about to overrun your dying empire, huh? Well, we'd be glad to help, seeing as our crusaders are the primary reason why you're totally crippled now, but first you have to agree to abandon everything we disagree with. Otherwise, we leave you to rot. Aren't you lucky to have friends like us?"

Not that the Turks were good Samaritans--they were pretty bad, by modern standards--but the fact remains that, under them, Orthodoxy survived. You wouldn't have given us that option.

[Berzerker]

sorry, gotta drop another turd

In much the same way as a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellows is suicide.

Was he resurrected in 3 days too? I guess if he was a Christian

I think the comparison diminishes what the soldier did and elevates Jesus - the soldier gave his life for others for "free", not to be King over them. But if Jesus did it knowing he'd be resurrected I guess I cant call it suicide. Kinda like how superhero Kenny in South Park committed suicide only to wake up again. Aint really suicide if you know its temporary, so why is killing yourself a sin for Christians?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's called "having a sense of proportion."

Proportionate response to someone ethnic cleansing isn't, "but I'm sure they are very nice people".

Most of the time, Christians under Muslim rule were second-class citizens, but allowed to worship as they pleased. That's significantly better than most non-Catholics did under Catholic rule. As for the Armenians, AFAIK they died because the Turks knew their empire was collapsing and they thought the Armenians would revolt. Their religion was only a factor insofar as the Turks trusted Muslims more than Christians.

Right, I'm sure they will take your assessment that they are 'fake' Orthodox well. Why don't you go tell them that and report back to me how that works out for you?

[Ben Kenobi]

You wouldn't have given us that option.

Right. Which is why you called us on over to help you out after you ****ed yourselves over with the Turks? Which is why we fought and died for that - they were in Nicaea by the time we got there in the first crusade.

Yeah, because we were motivated to eradicate all traces of Orthodoxy. Christ, this is like a wife married to an abusive husband. "But at least he loves me." No, no, he doesn't

Islam is not your friend.

[Berzerker]

Islam is not your friend

all is not well in the neighborhood

[Imran Siddiqui]

You wouldn't have given us that option.

Indeed. The Roman Pontiff's help always came with a price. It was like the Rumpelstiltskin of the Christian faith.

[Sava]

This thread has taught me that Kenny from South Park is Jesus.

[Guynemer]

...are we really debating the god-damned Schism and ****ing Crusades? Jesus tap dancing Christ on a cracker, why did I open this thread?

[Sava]

BECAUSE YOU LOVE PAIN

[Sava]

BTW, Muslims are more my friend than Catholics... as they gave a crap about saving Jews during the Holocaust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Mosque#History

[Elok]

...are we really debating the god-damned Schism and ****ing Crusades? Jesus tap dancing Christ on a cracker, why did I open this thread?

We're several pages into a week-old troll-the-Christians thread. The odds of this not being an unproductive debate with BK are low. Caveat emptor.

With that said, it's never going to get anywhere, so to hell with it.