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The story of Jesus was made up by the Roman Empire

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  • The thing is, for all the Islamist outrage over infidel crusader imperialist domination, etc., most of the crusades to the Holy Land proper were remarkably ineffectual:

    First Crusade goes overland, recovers a couple of cities for Byzantium, struggles through Asia Minor, takes control of Antioch, Edessa, Jerusalem and...Tyre? I don't recall, but they established some little kingdoms. The Second goes in the footsteps of the First, but gets mauled so badly along the way that not enough troops arrive to do anything significant. Then Saladin retakes Jerusalem, and the Third is launched to try and retake it. It fails, but it does take Acre instead. The Fourth, as noted, never even gets to the Levant. They capture Zara in the Balkans, then loot Constantinople and set up a Latin Kingdom. It takes Byzantium sixty years to kick out the usurpers, and their Empire is a pathetic stump of its former glory when they do.

    The Fifth Crusade aims to take over Egypt, but various blunders get it cut to pieces, and King Louis IX is actually taken captive and needs to be ransomed. Somewhere in there, Jerusalem is actually reclaimed, but by Frederick II (excommunicated at the time), who makes a diplomatic deal with the Saracens of Damascus. They don't let him rebuild the walls, though, so when the Mamluks come to power in Egypt they easily take it back, along with everything else. Acre falls in 1291, and the holdouts are butchered soon after. Total lifespan of the Crusader Kingdoms: less than 200 years, and most of that was spent on defensive action and internal intrigues.

    The problem was, crusading was only ever a temporary vocation for the vast majority of people who did it. They went, they mucked around for a couple of years, they went home. Except for the Military Orders, there was a perpetual manpower shortage. Which, incidentally, is why they massacred almost nobody after the fall of Jerusalem in 1099. They couldn't afford to butcher like that routinely, or they wouldn't have anyone to work the fields, pay taxes, etc. I've read that they actually offered Muslim tenants a better deal than most Muslim rulers, at one point.

    The point is, it's an open question whether Byzantium's lifespan would have been longer or shorter if the Crusades had never happened. On the one hand, we got a couple of cities back, and they distracted the Muslims somewhat. On the other, if the Muslims hadn't been internally divided and distracted already, the Franks wouldn't have lasted much more than a decade, and it's hard to overstate how badly we were ruined by those sixty years.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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    • Elok

      But Islamists don't actually care about such things. It might be in some of the rhetoric at times, but that's just thrown in there for effect. Have you ever read OBL's writings? He's quite clear about his complaints: Troops in Saudi Arabia... support for Israel... that's mostly what he gripes about.
      To us, it is the BEAST.

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      • I know it's all for propaganda purposes, but it's a weird thing to scream about. They can only wish our troops were that hapless.

        Also: Catholics stole our bell. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/R...ak-4891969.php
        1011 1100
        Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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        • Originally posted by Elok View Post
          from story:
          Rev. Innocent Dresdow, dean of Holy Resurrection Orthodox Cathedral,
          Orthodox don't have "reverends".
          To us, it is the BEAST.

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          • Ever look at the back of your church bulletin? Every church I've been to, it says "Met. [x], Primate, V. Rev. [x], pastor, etc." We just don't call them reverends. Paper made a mistake, what do you expect?
            1011 1100
            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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            • Originally posted by Elok View Post
              Ever look at the back of your church bulletin?
              No because it's all in Serbian.
              To us, it is the BEAST.

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              • Which Ben goes to prove in this thread. Its like a "I don't remember that we did stuff to you, so why do you?"
                Sure, bad things were done. If you were a starving crusader in Constantinople who had just found out that the new Emperor wasn't going to pay you for your efforts, what would you do?

                The correct response for the Fourth Crusade would have been to simply ignore the ex-emperoro altogether and stick to their primary mission instead of getting involved in some bull**** byzantine dynastic dispute.

                In any case, they went well beyond what they should have done. There's no excuse for that or the setting up of the Latin Empire in the East - but here's the rub. They got to Constantinople because the Byzantines invited them in.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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                • "Never invite a Catholic into your home, silly boy. It renders you powerless"

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                  • This is all pretty unconvincing. I'm much more sympathetic to the view that Jesus was based on a real figure whom Paul co-opted to be the mouthpiece for his philosophical views, much as Plato did to Socrates.
                    Tutto nel mondo è burla

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