The story of Jesus was made up by the Roman Empire

[Elok]

Should we apologize for converting the new world?

Given the way you went about it, yeah, you really should. I think the Church already has at some point, though you personally refuse to. Also, you may be surprised to learn that the Christian churches under Muslim occupation did not shut down or disappear. The EP has been under Islamic domination for centuries now, and they're doing their best to crush it, but it's still there. As for the quibble on "nationalism," substitute "region" or "area" for "nation," if you like. Sheesh.

[Hauldren Collider]

words

Dude, I went to sunday school for years and years and never even heard a word about the orthodox churches, let alone bad blood or whatnot. It seems to me that Orthodox Christians care more about Catholics than vice versa.

[kentonio]

Dude, I went to sunday school for years and years and never even heard a word about the orthodox churches, let alone bad blood or whatnot. It seems to me that Orthodox Christians care more about Catholics than vice versa.

Christians caring about Christians? Gosh, perish the thought..

[Elok]

Dude, I went to sunday school for years and years and never even heard a word about the orthodox churches, let alone bad blood or whatnot. It seems to me that Orthodox Christians care more about Catholics than vice versa.

Well, yeah. The aggression and cruelty was all on their side. The Crusades were originally intended to help, to be fair, but wound up ruining Byzantium instead. Catholics are unaware of this because (until recently) Western history persistently painted us as irrelevant, decadent, effeminate Oriental barbarians who accomplished nothing of note. Instead of "the reason this textbook is not printed in Arabic." History is written by the winners, as they say.

[PLATO]

Yes, surely failing to save yourself when it is in your power to do is, is, in effect, suicide.

In much the same way as a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellows is suicide.

[Ben Kenobi]

Quick Wiki search of Konigsberg reveals that it was depopulated after WWII by the Communists, and repopulated with Russians.

...Stalin was not known for his piety.

We would have been far better off with the preservation of the Romanov dynasty. Personally, I'd love to see them restored, if not them than the Rurikids.

The point I was driving home is that yes, Catholics have suffered too. Go back far enough and we all have.

The Crusades were originally intended to help, to be fair, but wound up ruining Byzantium instead. Catholics are unaware of this because (until recently) Western history persistently painted us as irrelevant, decadent, effeminate Oriental barbarians who accomplished nothing of note. Instead of "the reason this textbook is not printed in Arabic." History is written by the winners, as they say.

The real question I have is this - why are Byz so hung up about the Fourth Crusade and not what came after? It hasn't been a pleasant time for the Orthodox anywhere in the East. You're still under the rule of Islam. Surely that should take precedence - restoring what was once yours?

Given the way you went about it, yeah, you really should.

Because we were successful? Why aren't there Eastern Orthodox everywhere in the world as there are Catholics? Sure, we made mistakes. Mistakes happen. But we went out and converted the west. The reason that 'Rome expanded beyond her 'limits' is because of what we did 5, 6 hundred years ago. Shouldn't we get some credit for it?

Also, you may be surprised to learn that the Christian churches under Muslim occupation did not shut down or disappear.

As a Protestant, I was ignorant of that, but not now. Personally I would love to see the Hagia Sophia restored under her true masters.

As for the quibble on "nationalism," substitute "region" or "area" for "nation," if you like. Sheesh.

Look, we're all in the same boat together facing a common enemy. If we fight together we are stronger.

[giblets]

In much the same way as a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellows is suicide.

Possibly if that soldier is God and could have easily teleported the grenade to Mars.

[Berzerker]

Circumcellions, a suicide sect of Christianity

Because Jesus had told Peter to put down his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18:11), the Circumcellions piously avoided bladed weapons and instead opted for the use of blunt clubs, which they called "Israelites." Using their "Israelites", the Circumcellions would attack random travelers on the road, while shouting "Laudate Deum!" ("Praise God!" in Latin.) The object of these random beatings was the death of the intrepid martyr, who sought to provoke the victim to attack and kill them.[6][7][8]

On occasion, members of this group assaulted Roman legionaries or armed travelers with simple wooden clubs to provoke them into attacking and martyring them. Others interrupted courts of law and verbally provoked the judge so that he would order their immediate execution (a normal punishment at the time for contempt of court).[9] The sect survived until the fifth century in Africa.

Jesus provoked "martyrdom" and gave birth to these folks

[Ben Kenobi]

Was this before or after he was nailed to the cross?

[Berzerker]

provoking martyrdom was before the cross, achieving it was afterward

[Elok]

That is one of the weirdest trolls I've ever seen, Berz.

BK, while we don't much care for Islam, the thing is, they're Muslims. They have no reason, beyond "people of the book," to treat us well, and yet historically they've offered us better terms than Rome did. Under the Turks, we were reduced to a pathetic state, but we were allowed to keep our own traditions and worship as we pleased. The Council of Florence (IIRC) might have saved us, but at the cost of our identity, so we rejected it. As the saying went, "better the Turkish turban than the Roman mitre." Likewise in Slavic lands, Western "missionaries" (with attendant troops) kept coming in and forcing Orthodox Christians to serve the Pope. Which is the origin of the Uniate churches in Romania--I'm not sure what they're called in other regions. Most Eastern Rite Catholics are the descendants of subverted Orthodox. Crusaders came and liberated cities in the Levant, only to replace dhimmi-but-otherwise-unmolested Eastern clergy with Latins. Et cetera.

[Ben Kenobi]

BK, while we don't much care for Islam, the thing is, they're Muslims. They have no reason, beyond "people of the book," to treat us well, and yet historically they've offered us better terms than Rome did. Under the Turks, we were reduced to a pathetic state, but we were allowed to keep our own traditions and worship as we pleased.

Greeks were expelled. Armenians were ethnically cleansed. How is this better treatment?

The Council of Florence (IIRC) might have saved us, but at the cost of our identity, so we rejected it. As the saying went, "better the Turkish turban than the Roman mitre."

And how is that working out for you?

Likewise in Slavic lands, Western "missionaries" (with attendant troops) kept coming in and forcing Orthodox Christians to serve the Pope.

Orthodox christians like Lithuanians?

Which is the origin of the Uniate churches in Romania--I'm not sure what they're called in other regions. Most Eastern Rite Catholics are the descendants of subverted Orthodox. Crusaders came and liberated cities in the Levant, only to replace dhimmi-but-otherwise-unmolested Eastern clergy with Latins. Et cetera.

Not all slavs are Orthodox. Some are, some aren't. Slovenians, Croatians, Slovakians, Lithuanians, and Ruthenians are Catholic and have long histories of being Catholic. Same with Poles. My own German family likewise living in Masuria in Royal Prussia were Catholics which was a surprise to me. AFAIK, only myself and one of my cousins are Catholics and we are both converts.

[Elok]

? The Armenians were ethnically cleansed by the very late Ottoman Empire, in a paranoid attempt to destroy them before they could rebel. Their religion was only a factor in that the Turks assumed their Christianity would make them disloyal. The Ottomans were mostly a secular-imperial/Turkish-nationalist batch (they kept a tame Caliph with no real powers for centuries), and AFAIK didn't treat us all that badly. Certainly better than we would have gotten from, say, some of the Renaissance popes. Now, the modern Turkish government are trying to squeeze the life out of the EP, with the EU and everyone else looking the other way, but until recently they were ferociously secular. And there's some weird politics in the mix there, too; Greeks and Turks don't like each other, to put it mildly, and I hear the EP keeps agitating for Cyprus. I don't know the details, so I should probably shut up about it.

Also, your insistence that Islam is a monolithic wad of hateful psychos is not true to reality. Some, like AQ, are utter ghouls. Others, like the Sufis, are mellow and harmless. Most fall along a spectrum in between. I don't think the RCC is pure evil, either, but you guys do have a very ugly history with us and it won't just wash away.

[Berzerker]

That is one of the weirdest trolls I've ever seen, Berz.

I've been a real stinker today

[Hauldren Collider]

Christians caring about Christians? Gosh, perish the thought..

I think you misunderstood my use of the word "care"