NRA announce that lead poisoning is an evil liberal myth

[Docfeelgood]

That's what we do around here, as far as I can tell.

that nice thing sure didn't last very long

[Dinner]

Would you paint your house with lead paint?

I'm guessing that, when the story about the lead-paint in chinese kids toys came out, you rushed to go and buy those for cheap before they got taken out of circulation, after all, lead is harmless...

Also, regular people did not eat food they previously rubbed against the wall, the only real hazard from lead paint was chips coming off the wall, kids licking the wall, and house fires.
Condors, OTOH, being carrion eaters, don't really shy away from eating a dead animal with a bullet lodged in it.

Besides, you're talking about a bird whose adult weight can reach 12 kg. That's less than the average 2 year old. The amount of lead that would lead to poisoning for one of them is significantly lower than the average human.

Not to mention the birds are exceptionally long lived (living up to 60 years of age) so they have a lot of time to bioaccumulate the lead.

[snoopy369]

that nice thing sure didn't last very long

That was mobius, not reg.

[giblets]

I remember when tooth paste came in a lead tube.

That explains a lot.

[regexcellent]

There is a vast trove of evidence that the lead in gasoline dramatically decreased the intelligence level of Americans during the period in which lead-based gasoline was most commonly used (1950s-1970s). Very low levels of lead in the blood still cause significant decreases in IQ. The average amount of lead in blood in the 1970s was sufficient to cause a decrease of about 10 IQ points on average. That's a massive drop. Correlative studies have also shown lead appears to have caused significant increases in violent crime and teen pregnancies, although those can never be more than correlative..

Jesus ****ing christ.

A bit of lead in a berm is vastly different from leaded gasoline. Location and vector are everything.

I'm not talking about gasoline.

I'm talking about lead, in the ground, which is just sitting there doing nothing not being eaten by anything. Simply being around lead which isn't in some type of solution won't hurt you.

As I said before, lead shot is a problem because birds eat it. Lead paint is a problem because kids eat it. Lead bullets aren't a problem because they just sit there in the side of a hill. In order to put lead in solution you need powerful acids as Ogie said, and water isn't one of those.

No-one said they did get sick from being around chunks of lead

Well actually yes they are! Because that's what bullets in the ground are and according to you that makes animals sick.

[regexcellent]

Not in the sense that lead laying around was in some way going to poison the ground or whatever, simply in the sense that having large quantities of it thrown in tiny fragments out into the wilderness was inevitably going to lead to lots of it entering the animal food chain, which is exactly what happens.

No it won't! Animals don't just eat whatever inorganic material is lying around, especially inorganic material buried several inches into the dirt (which is what happens when bullets hit dirt). Birds eat lead shot because they eat pebbles to grind up actual nutritional material, and lead shot is the right shape and size. There is way, way more poisonous stuff lying around everywhere than lead so if animals were actually that stupid they'd all be dead by now.

Would you paint your house with lead paint?

AHHH WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE. NO I AM NOT ADVOCATING LEAD PAINT FOR YOUR HOUSES!

I'm guessing that, when the story about the lead-paint in chinese kids toys came out, you rushed to go and buy those for cheap before they got taken out of circulation, after all, lead is harmless...

I didn't claim lead is harmless, I claimed that lead sitting in the ground is harmless.

Also, regular people did not eat food they previously rubbed against the wall, the only real hazard from lead paint was chips coming off the wall

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID

Condors, OTOH, being carrion eaters, don't really shy away from eating a dead animal with a bullet lodged in it.

They will avoid eating a bullet. They won't avoid eating shot. Which is why you can't hunt with lead shot anymore.

Bullets are big heavy things usually with a copper jacket. Lead shot is small, BB-sized (literaly that is a standard shot size) pellets.

And for that matter hunters don't generally leave animals they've shot just lying around. It's more common with birds but if you shoot a deer, you're bringing it home, not leaving it there to get eaten by condors.

Besides, you're talking about a bird whose adult weight can reach 12 kg. That's less than the average 2 year old. The amount of lead that would lead to poisoning for one of them is significantly lower than the average human.

What does this have to do with them getting poisoned by lead in the ground? They don't go around digging up shooting range berms to eat the lead.

[N35t0r]

AHHH WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE. NO I AM NOT ADVOCATING LEAD PAINT FOR YOUR HOUSES!

Well, unless your point involved no bullet ever being eaten by an animal, it sounded like lead paint posed no harm at all.

I didn't claim lead is harmless, I claimed that lead sitting in the ground is harmless.

Toys, as far as I know, are also pretty much harmless. After all, who would attempt to eat a toy sitting in the ground if it's not food?

Also, your point was that simply being around lead is not dangerous. My point is that simply being around lead poses much higher risks of such lead getting into your system than if it wasn't.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID

So it's OK to ban something because it poses an indirect threat to the health of human beings?

They will avoid eating a bullet. They won't avoid eating shot. Which is why you can't hunt with lead shot anymore.

regexcelent, ornithologist. Also, that's usually waterfowl. Condors don't have guzzards, so they won't be eating shot mistaking it for small stones. They might eat a bullet, or shrapnel from one, while eating a dead animal. I don't know the north american variety, but the one over here positively gorges itself if it hasn't found much food lately. I'm sure they must be very picky about what they eat.

Bullets are big heavy things usually with a copper jacket. Lead shot is small, BB-sized (literaly that is a standard shot size) pellets.

Copper, that metal that is famous for its hardness and not being toxic at all. And bullets, those things always recovered intact when they hit anything.

And for that matter hunters don't generally leave animals they've shot just lying around. It's more common with birds but if you shoot a deer, you're bringing it home, not leaving it there to get eaten by condors.

No, but sometimes they do, and sometimes they just wound the animal, maybe even because they missed and bullet fragments from a ricochet hit them. I don't know. But to claim that lead from a bullet will never enter the food chain is quite silly if you ask me.

What does this have to do with them getting poisoned by lead in the ground? They don't go around digging up shooting range berms to eat the lead.

Nothing, but I never claimed that the lead in the ground was poisoning them. It's possible it is, it's possible it isn't.

What is relevant, though, is that if the small amount of lead in paint chippings was serious enough threat to humans to ban lead paint, then you wouldn't need that much lead to pose a threat to a much much smaller animal.

[N35t0r]

In order to put lead in solution you need powerful acids as Ogie said, and water isn't one of those.

Eh, no. Lead can react with water as long as there's oxygen present.

[The Mad Monk]

Not so much

[The Mad Monk]

That's a fun link, BTW. Where's the hue and cry over wheel weights?

The 2009 “Learning Without Limits” team “Dead Weight” studied the environmental hazards of lead wheel weights used in balancing automotive tires. Our project was conceived in August of 2008 at an automotive service center when one of our team members noticed that the garage owner was discarding old used lead wheel weights in a dumpster destined for the local Iowa City landfill. We knew lead was a very dangerous toxic substance and wondered why this issue had not been addressed in a more serious manner before this time. We asked Dr. Hector Ibarra about the feasibility of studying lead wheel weights and their effect on our environment.

We wish to thank Dr. Hector Ibarra, our mentor who introduced us to Dr. Michael Wichman and the University of Iowa Hygienic Laboratory. Dr.Wichman assisted us in our project research and testing that was a major contributing factor in our team winning the first ever 2009 Siemen’s We Can Change the World Environmental Challenge. Our project and Dr. Michael Wichman’s research and testing results were later reviewed by world scientists at an August 9, 2009 United Nations youth science meeting and the United States Environmental Protection Agency, ultimately tipping the balance on August 26, 2009 in favor of the EPA ordering a formulation and implementation of new national rules to ban the sale and phase out the use of all lead wheel weights used in automotive tire balancing.

Typically, lead wheel weights are a mixture of 95% lead and 5% antimony and are clipped to the wheel rims of every vehicle in the United States to ensure tire balance and prevent vibration at high speeds. Since the 1930’s lead weights have been used to balance wheels worldwide because lead is cheap, heavy, easy to work with, and allows mechanics to use relatively small weights to balance the wheels. There are millions of vehicles in the United States with an average of 8 ounces of lead used to balance the wheels of every vehicle. According to the U.S. Geological Survey and U.S. Federal Highway Administration, about 65,000 tons of lead wheel weights were in use on the more than 200 million cars and trucks driven in the United States in 2003. Lead weights falling off tire rims are one of the largest ongoing releases of lead into the environment. Although many conscientious automotive service centers believe they are controlling the lead wheel weight problem by recycling lead wheel weights, the EPA estimates that up to 13% or approximately 2,000 tons of wheel weights fall off into the environment each year (USA Today, August 28, 2008). While the federal government has banned lead in paint, gasoline and plumbing, among other products, the EPA, until recently, has ignored an estimated 3.5 to 4 million pounds of lead weights that drop off tire rims and onto U.S. roads every year.

Science research team "Dead Weight" recognizes the need to protect the public from exposure to lead. Our goal is to rid the world of hazardous lead in wheel weights. Historically, little thought has been given about the metal used in making wheel weights. There are no federal laws governing the use of lead in wheel weights. Lead wheel weights are one of the last major unregulated sources of lead pollution entering the environment (Jeff Gearhart). 80% of the wheel weights installed in the United States are lead wheel weights while the remaining 20% are lead free wheel weights. While new car and wheel weight manufacturers are making voluntary progress to phase in lead-free wheel weights, 80% of all lead wheel weights sold are installed by tire service stations (USA Today, August 28, 2008).

Employees at tire service center are exposed to lead wheel weight dust on a daily basis. People are exposed to lead fragments and dust when lead wheel weights fall from motor vehicles onto roadways and are abraded and pulverized by the traffic or are swept up and deposited in landfills. Lead wheel weights on roadways can contribute to soil, surface and groundwater contamination and pose hazards to aquatic life. "A one ounce lead wheel weight weighs over 28 grams. Our tests with the help of the University of Iowa Hygienic Lab suggest that 1 gram of wheel weight lead has the potential to contaminate over 66,000 liters of water." http://www.smartenergy4kids.org/imag...adww.1-10.html

Lead transmission through the food chain is inevitable. Lead negatively affects every body system. While lead is hazardous to people of all ages, lead is especially harmful to fetuses, children, and adults of childbearing age. Effects of lead on a child's cognitive, behavioral, and developmental abilities may necessitate large expenditures of personal and public funds for health care and special education. Irreversible damage to children and subsequent expenditures could be avoided if exposure to lead is reduced.

Wheel weight lead contamination is a preventable problem because environmentally friendly and competitively priced lead-free wheel weight alternatives are available. The cost of lead wheel weight contamination prevention is far less expensive than the cost of removing lead from the environment. Our science research team has created a community minded solution to phase in the use of environmentally friendly steel wheel weights. Our lead wheel weight research project suggests and outlines a community based plan that can be replicated in any community across the United States. We convinced our city council to eliminate lead wheel weights on city vehicles and our state legislators to introduce a bill banning the sale and installation of lead wheel weights in Iowa. Our efforts have made a real difference. Please click on our website links to see our journey as we explored a model for phasing out the current practice of using lead in wheel weights. You may click on this link to read our Siemens We Can Change the World Challenge First Place and national grand prize winning lead wheel weight research and proposal paper.

http://www.leadzero.org/

[snoopy369]

Not so much

From that article and a linked article from it, lead does dissolve into water when also in the presence of O2 (ie, often!) slowly. But more importantly, in the presence of H2CO3, it will dissolve more readily.

The problem? H2CO3 is the buffer in (mammal, at leasT) blood. So it's readily present. So while a condor might not eat a copper jacketed bullet, it might eat animals that were exposed to bullets - thus ingesting some lead from their blood.

Further, lead bullets often fragment in large animals (ie, deer), leading to pieces the condor can eat - and a few of those are enough to be toxic. (from this article)

[regexcellent]

Well, unless your point involved no bullet ever being eaten by an animal, it sounded like lead paint posed no harm at all.

Also, your point was that simply being around lead is not dangerous. My point is that simply being around lead poses much higher risks of such lead getting into your system than if it wasn't.

Somehow the world's electrical engineers have managed to avoid lead poisoning on a massive scale.

regexcelent, ornithologist. Also, that's usually waterfowl. Condors don't have guzzards, so they won't be eating shot mistaking it for small stones. They might eat a bullet, or shrapnel from one, while eating a dead animal. I don't know the north american variety, but the one over here positively gorges itself if it hasn't found much food lately. I'm sure they must be very picky about what they eat.

Right back at you, N35tor, ornithologist. There has never been an issue with Condor eating bullets. 100% of the lead poisoning came from shot. Bullet fragments are large and sharp. It would be like eating bits of a cut up can of beans.

And in any case, I'm pretty sure we're not just talking about bullets used in hunting here, but bullets used on firing ranges. Bullets that are shot into paper or steel and then go smack into the dirt. Condors aren't going to eat those.

THE ENTIRE PURPOSE of the california lead ammunition ban proposal is to make shooting sports uneconomical, not environmental reasons. That's just a lame excuse.

Copper, that metal that is famous for its hardness and not being toxic at all. And bullets, those things always recovered intact when they hit anything.

Yeah, usually hunting bullets are, except for varmint bullets which basically cause the animal to explode from the inside. Hunting bullets are hollow point and don't break up inside flesh that much.

Here's a picture of a 6.5mm Swedish cartridge, a very popular hunting cartridge in Europe (not as common in North America) and what happens when it gets shot into stuff:

No, but sometimes they do, and sometimes they just wound the animal, maybe even because they missed and bullet fragments from a ricochet hit them. I don't know. But to claim that lead from a bullet will never enter the food chain is quite silly if you ask me.

To claim that bullets are entering the food chain in any quantity worth legislating over is ridiculous. Especially bullets fired on shooting ranges at dirt berms.

What is relevant, though, is that if the small amount of lead in paint chippings was serious enough threat to humans to ban lead paint, then you wouldn't need that much lead to pose a threat to a much much smaller animal.

Unless they aren't eating the lead.

[The Mad Monk]

It doesn't dissolve, it reacts, forming a coating of insoluble oxide on the surface, much as copper or aluminum does.

It can dissolve in HCl in several forms, which is how elemental lead can be toxic.

[snoopy369]

Eh, good point, didn't really think that through. Not sure how we ended up on that tangent anyway since fragments are the real concern

[regexcellent]

Because fragments don't end up in the food chain when they get shot at a piece of paper in front of a dirt wall. So the only possible concern you could have about stuff being shot into dirt is it getting into the water supply.

Fun fact, "plumbing" is called plumbing because pipes used to be made out of lead, plumbum in latin, because lead is not corroded or dissolved by water.

Sidenote, why does anyone give a **** about the california condor anyway? If there are only ~200 individuals left, there can't possibly be a significant effect on the ecosystem if it went extinct because there aren't enough of them to matter anyway.