If abortion was to be made illegal ....

[PLATO]

Sure. A fetus is alive the second it becomes an embryo.

I actually meant to say Human life there.

That's not the point. The point is, should that lump of cells be given the same legal status as people who have been born. It would be an absolutely ridiculous and unprecedented statement with no ethical, moral, or religious justification. It's simply arbitrary. Birth is arbitrary. But it's a more significant milestone in human development... and one that makes sense.

I guess if you look at milestones, then conception would be one also. That seems to make the same sense as using Birth. I would imagine that Brain Activity would be a more scientific milestone for the threshold of human life to some??

Should late term abortions be banned? That's not the point either. Should driving your car on two wheels be banned? Why even bother wasting government resources on enforcing that? It almost never happens. But in the case of late term abortion, it happens mostly because of health concerns to the mother. But then you get idiots like Ben who just deny reality.

What is the point...as you see it?

------------------------

Any person who has actually read the Bible and possesses a modicum of intelligence, can easily get an idea for the value God places on an infant's life... let alone a fetus. Adam wasn't even a person until God breathed life into him. I know the authors of the Bible weren't out to set precedent on when personhood starts. But considering those filth ridden dip****s lived in an era of insanely high infant mortality, the attitude that you should count your chickens until they hatch would probably prevail over the notion that a few cells is the moral equivalent of a person.

Well...if we are to bring the Bible into it... Jeremiah 1:5 is compelling on personhood imho.

The point is moot, obviously. It's settled law. Abortions are a constitutionally protected right. Public opinion on the issue has largely been unchanged since Roe v Wade. It's not likely the support will ever be there for a constitutional amendment banning abortion... or much of anything else for that matter. Though, I could see congress granting legal personhood to corporations in the form of an amendment way before they do so for human embryos.

Every law can be changed if it is the will of the people acting through the Constitutional process. What you are saying is that it is "settled" for now. Personhood for corporations is an interesting avenue that would have a lot of interesting applications. Would an unfriendly takeover be murder?

The anti-choice nutbags do more to hurt their cause than help it. Ben is probably on the more intelligent side of that lot... and look how utterly out of touch he is with normals. Such activists are collectively the crotchety, old, retarded person at the Thanksgiving table that everyone else talks **** about behind their back. They've marginalized themselves even within their own families with their idiotic extremist nonsense.

Just as I advocate tolerance among those that are pro-life, I do so as well among those that are pro-choice. Ben is not right in pounding people continually over the head about his beliefs and you are not either. The stereotypical image that you try to create only shows intolerance and ignorance of who may or may not believe something. tsk...tsk...

This is only news now because the Republican party is itself marginalized... and likely on life support... barely surviving by pandering to those nutbags. Unless the moderates are let back in the clubhouse, the crazies are going to ensure the party is electorally irrelevant for decades.

So by all means, I hope they continue to bang their heads into the brick wall. Eventually, they'll bleed out and die... becoming just another comical historical oddity in the history of American politics.

And thus we descend into political party bashing. Sad, my friend. While it is true that a higher percentage of Republicans are pro-life than Democrats, it is an issue that spans political parties. Now, certainly it being a plank in the Republican platform may to some extent justify your rant, it is most likely not going to cause the Republican party to go away. It will simply drive those that it is a major issue for either to or from the party.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's not the point. The point is, should that lump of cells be given the same legal status as people who have been born.

Should we protect the right to life of the unborn the same way we protect all other persons? That's the question here. You're assuming that all legal personhood rights would come to bear - but that's not the case. The big one here is the right to life - meaning that one couldn't kill an unborn child because she is a person.

It would be an absolutely ridiculous and unprecedented statement with no ethical, moral, or religious justification.

Didn't you just bash fundamentalists for being obsessed with their religion? You don't believe this, Sava. Clearly there are religious and ethical justifications for the protection of human life within the womb. Just as there are religious and ethical justifications for protecting life outside of the womb. The argument is not difficult. Every person goes through stages in their life. Whether as an infant, or a fetus, or an embryo. We all went through these stages. If our life had been terminated at any one of these points - we would not be here.

But it's a more significant milestone in human development... and one that makes sense.

Actually, nothing significant in terms of human development occurs at birth. Birth at 40 weeks is not substantially different from a c-section at 38 weeks.

Should late term abortions be banned? That's not the point either.

Should they, Sava? You believe they are wrong, so why are you permitting it?

Should driving your car on two wheels be banned? Why even bother wasting government resources on enforcing that? It almost never happens.

If 5 percent of abortions are after 20 weeks, that's a total of 50 thousand abortions a year. Total traffic fatalities are 32 thousand a year in the US alone.

So, you are wrong here. It does happen, and it happens with sufficient frequency to merit regulation.

in the case of late term abortion, it happens mostly because of health concerns to the mother.

This again is false. You can perform a c-section and save the life of the mother and the child.

The anti-choice nutbags do more to hurt their cause than help it. Ben is probably on the more intelligent side of that lot... and look how utterly out of touch he is with normals. Such activists are collectively the crotchety, old, retarded person at the Thanksgiving table that everyone else talks **** about behind their back. They've marginalized themselves even within their own families with their idiotic extremist nonsense.

I can attest that there are plenty of young people, (some of them women too!) on the prolife side of the line.

[Egbert]

What if abortion threads were made illegal?

[Sava]

it is most likely not going to cause the Republican party to go away

No. The Republican Party is going away because crazy old white people are dying and their children, for the most part, accept modern American values and not that extremist bull****.

[Sava]

That being said. MrFun's thread (it pains me to say this) has a point. Anti-abortion wet dreams are completely unenforceable. Sure, charge abortion doctors with murder. Can you imagine how such a circus would play out? I can just see the TV shows that result from such nonsense. Law and Order:OBGYN.

It's ****ing retarded. And if these idiots actually cared about reducing abortions, they'd be out on the street passing out free condoms. But instead they want everyone to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that sex isn't actually a thing... abstinence only education being a perfect example.

These dip****s use the factually incorrect "it's not natural" argument against homosexuality (they must not be pet owners or have ever been to a zoo). This is especially hilarious because they want to pretend that God meant for sex to only occur in marriage between one man and one woman and only for procreation. How ****ing unnatural is that!?

Idiots.

[molly bloom]

I would like to contribute this to the discussion: it should be "if abortion were to be made illegal." The subjunctive mood is an endangered species and needs to be protected. Also, to hell with this discussion, it's not gonna go anywhere it hasn't gone the last eighty times we/you had it.

Three cheers for the sadly neglected subjunctive. More popular in French and German everyday parlance, if I recall aright. And much sinned against in Modern Englishes.

[molly bloom]

Overall, I agree with you. I will say this, again, abortion used as a means of birth control is bull****.

I agree. Unfortunately when you have the likes of the Catholic Church and other religious/political groups inveighing against condom usage, even when it is a means of preventing H.I.V. transmission (as well as other S.T.D.s) then you begin to realise the world is a damn stupid place full of small minded people who want to grasp what tiny scraps of power they can to compensate for their own inadequacies.

Proper sex education- not just about the mechanics but about feelings and mutual respect- free condoms and regular check-ups and distribution of the birth control pill and the morning after pill would all go a long way to reducing the number of abortions worldwide.

Which all still doesn't address why so many men want to maintain a picket inside a woman's reproductive system, when they don't have to incubate the tissues for nine months. Oh wait....

[PLATO]

No. The Republican Party is going away because crazy old white people are dying and their children, for the most part, accept modern American values and not that extremist bull****.

No THAT may be true.

[molly bloom]

You're assuming that Condoms and birth control never fail.

You can look both ways crossing the road and still get knocked down by a car. This doesn't indicate you're less likely to get knocked down if you cross without paying attention or with your eyes closed and fingers crossed hoping for the best.

[Elok]

Proper sex education- not just about the mechanics but about feelings and mutual respect- free condoms and regular check-ups and distribution of the birth control pill and the morning after pill would all go a long way to reducing the number of abortions worldwide.

You might get some takers on the mechanics. But I'll bet you most teenagers, at least in public schools, don't care about their teachers' thoughts on feelings and mutual respect in relationships. They're going to model that sort of behavior after what they see their family and friends doing. Or, possibly, on TV.

[Sava]

Ben is so ****ing stupid. It's not worth responding to his idiocy. And making fun of him isn't worth the effort of reading his moronic filth.

The same could be said of me. But I seem to be at least somewhat entertaining... and my avatar is easy on the eyes.

[regexcellent]

A much better method for HIV prevention than condoms is not having sex with HIV positive people, and more generally not having sex with people you've only known for a week.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sure, charge abortion doctors with murder. Can you imagine how such a circus would play out? I can just see the TV shows that result from such nonsense. Law and Order:OBGYN.

See Kermit Gosnell trial. He was convicted. It's been done already.

pretend that sex isn't actually a thing

Sex makes babies.

passing out free condoms

Why then are we seeing abortions and condom use rise in tandem?

[DaShi]

A much better method for HIV prevention than condoms is not having sex with HIV positive people, and more generally not having sex with people you've only known for a week.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal, reg?

[Wezil]

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal, reg?

I don't know about that but his dorm room must be pretty quiet.