Christopher Dorner

[Al B. Sure!]

They aren't collateral damage.

Neither were the 3 people shot by the LAPD. The difference is the LAPD has incompetent marksmanship.

[Docfeelgood]

Christopher Dorner is a fvcking nut and being proclaimed a hero by fvcking nuts.

[Al B. Sure!]

More info on Dorner:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276375/Christopher-Dorner-Ex-cop-8-000-church-money-middle-road-handed-police.html#axzz2KbM8ZW9G

The ex-Los Angeles police officer who has allegedly gunned down three people and remains on the lam once handed in nearly $8,000 of church money that he found in the middle of the road, it has emerged.

Then-Navy ensign, Christopher Dorner, was hailed a hero in Enid, Oklahoma, after he and a military colleague found the bag of cash back in November 2002 and promptly handed it to police. The pair told a local newspaper at the time that the good deed was 'an integrity thing.'

The bag of money turned out to be donations collected by the nearby Korean Church of Grace during a Sunday service. It had slipped off the roof of church member Byung-Moon Jang's car as he was driving it to the bank.

This 'monster-ification' people do is counter-productive to understanding what causes good guys to go bad, what are the warning signs, and how we can prevent it. Dorner was not and still is not a monster. He's not evil. He's a human being who did something terrible out of a misguided sense of justice. The very ideals that made him good have made him bad. Dorner could be any one of us.

It is critical, especially in a military context, to understand stuff like this and not simply dismiss it as evil.

How do ideals like Honor, Courage, and Commitment, which Dorner referenced in his manifesto, turn into justifications for homicide in a man's mind?

[Al B. Sure!]

I guess it's not really ironic to point out that the same military ideals become justifications for killing enemy combatants. And especially in the modern era the defining line between enemy combatant and civilian is often quite hazy. It is what it is.

[Uncle Sparky]

... and Hitler liked puppies. BFD. Dorner intentionally killed the daughter of someone he disliked - he didn't kill the ex-cop/lawyer - he target killed the daughter. He is not a sympathetic character or a hero. He is another well armed American coward.

[snoopy369]

I have to say I don't often agree with Al, but he's 100% right here. He's clearly not one of the 'Chris Dorner is a hero' guys. This is a complicated situation, and clearly he is a screwed up guy doing screwed up things, but I just don't see the LAPD as the good guy here, given the available evidence [and past history of LAPD]. It sounds like he's mentally ill, and was set off by a bunch of people actually screwing him over to protect their own. Perhaps he's not telling the truth here, but what he's said seems plausible given LAPD's long history of corruption and police brutality. It doesn't excuse what he's doing or done, not by a mile, but 'sympathize' means something other than 'agree with'.

Sympathize means putting yourself in his shoes and imagining it's not 100% out of the question that you might not do the same thing, given the situation. I hope I wouldn't - I don't think I'm mentally ill - but I certainly can understand being in the situation of feeling like your life has been taken away from you while you were doing the right thing, because other people are self interested and morally reprehensible. Add mental illness to that, and it's not a surprise what's happened. I for one am rooting for him to be caught alive, or turn himself in, so the entire story can be heard - but won't be surprised when LAPD gun him down.

[Al B. Sure!]

Thank you

[MichaeltheGreat]

I guess it's not really ironic to point out that the same military ideals become justifications for killing enemy combatants. And especially in the modern era the defining line between enemy combatant and civilian is often quite hazy. It is what it is.

You're wrong, but since you have yet to be there, that's understandable.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I have to say I don't often agree with Al, but he's 100% right here. He's clearly not one of the 'Chris Dorner is a hero' guys. This is a complicated situation, and clearly he is a screwed up guy doing screwed up things, but I just don't see the LAPD as the good guy here, given the available evidence [and past history of LAPD]. It sounds like he's mentally ill, and was set off by a bunch of people actually screwing him over to protect their own. Perhaps he's not telling the truth here, but what he's said seems plausible given LAPD's long history of corruption and police brutality. It doesn't excuse what he's doing or done, not by a mile, but 'sympathize' means something other than 'agree with'.

Sympathize means putting yourself in his shoes and imagining it's not 100% out of the question that you might not do the same thing, given the situation. I hope I wouldn't - I don't think I'm mentally ill - but I certainly can understand being in the situation of feeling like your life has been taken away from you while you were doing the right thing, because other people are self interested and morally reprehensible. Add mental illness to that, and it's not a surprise what's happened. I for one am rooting for him to be caught alive, or turn himself in, so the entire story can be heard - but won't be surprised when LAPD gun him down.

A personality disorder is only "mentally ill" in the broadest sense. Bipolar, schizophrenia, severe depression, etc. are true mental illnesses with a definite (though not fully or clearly understood) neurochemical basis, and there are mental conditions such as CTE, Alzheimers, etc., with clear structural mechanisms that lead to the behavioral changes. Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, Sociopathic Personality Disorder, etc., have more complex sources, but they are not identifiably neurochemical or structural. There is frankly, much more choice involved in the behavior - rather than losing the ability to process or distinguish right and wrong as in true mental illness, those with personality disorders simply don't give a ****, because the universe inevitably revolves around them and their wants and inclinations. Dorner's manifesto and the degree of pre-planning and game playing are indicative of personality disorders, not classic mental illness.

[PLATO]

Dorner is a criminal...no doubt. That, in itself, does not take away from the fact that he might have a point on the conduct of the LAPD. The fact that he might have a point doesn't justify his crimes.

It is a good consequence of his crimes, however, that the events of his seperation and, indeed the entire LAPD, will now be reviewed. That being said, the end does not justify the means.

[snoopy369]

MtG - I am not his psychologist, I don't know if he's truly mentally ill. But it seems to me like it's pretty likely - and if it isn't by the current definition, then that definition may need reconsideration. His actions look like those of a person who's been broken by circumstance. The difference between an ******* who murders for fun or profit, and even folks like the crazy Norse guy or the kids at Columbine, and a guy like Dorner seem self-evident to me. Something's wrong in his head such that he feels like he has to react like this. I don't think he's a coward, or an evil person. I think he's messed up.

As Al said, the really important takeaway here - more so than the LAPD being corrupt or anything else - is, why does this happen? What makes a guy snap like this? And, once we figure that out, how can we use that knowledge to prevent this from happening in the future?

Plato, nobody (at least nobody here) is saying his crimes are or can be justified. His crimes are horrible, and he'll ultimately spend the rest of his life in jail for this assuming he's not killed first, and he should. "Sympathize", again, does not mean agree with; it means understand on an emotional level. I sympathize with my wife wanting to strangle me when I'm being difficult; I don't agree with her.

[MichaeltheGreat]

snoopy - I think a lot of it is definition. Are people like Ted Bundy and Douglas Rader mentally ill? Dorner's clearly not a sociopath, but he's a classic extreme example of narcissistic personality disorder. With all of these guys, though, they don't need to kill. They may self-justify it (sociopaths usually don't - they just decide they feel like it, and that's all that's needed in their world), but they do have a tremendous degree of control in their whole process. Dorner is the extreme example of self-control and self-discipline (for his own purposes). Hit in Irvine, have his ID and some personal stuff found near the San Ysidro border crossing in San Diego, hit in Riverside, burn his truck and "disappear" into the mountains. Nothing like being conspicuous. I'd be real surprised if he turns up frozen - he most likely had an exit plan and was long gone, laughing at those guys freezing their asses off looking for him. It's a big "get in their heads" game to him now, IMO.

[snoopy369]

MtG - I can't say I know anything about Ted Bundy or Dennis Rader. (Douglas Rader, the Red Rooster, was a Major League Baseball player and in no way mentally ill, unless playing baseball at a high level is a sign of that...)

However, I think it's a bit different either way. Bundy and Rader were serial killers; Dorner is not a serial killer. He may well end up killing a lot of people, who knows; but he clearly had a psychotic break due to incredible amounts of stress and presumably depression from facing the fact that his life as he knows it is over [leaving the Navy Reserves and the PD, the two things he'd worked to achieve]. I don't think he's crazy in the sense of not knowing what he is doing; neither were Bundy or Rader, presumably. But he's clearly mentally ill, in the sense that something in his head just went out.

I'm not trying to say he isn't responsible for his crimes, or that he shouldn't be held accountable; he should go to jail and stay there forever. He's not remotely similar to the mother who drowns her kids in the bathtub because Jesus told her to; that person is crazy in the sense you mean. However, he's not similar to what I think of Bundy or Rader, either (again, not really knowing much about them beyond the basics); they probably have something wrong with them at a fundamental level, that prevents them from having emotional ties to humanity. Dorner doesn't have that; he has a third thing, which is massive stress+depression+no way out=psychotic break.

That's why it's important to talk about this as a mental illness, IMO; you can and should prevent this from happening ahead of time by properly identifying people who are likely to be in the situation of 'no way out' and giving them a way out. Perhaps the LAPD needs to make more of an effort to help people who leave the force, because that is one of the obvious sources of problems - combine people who had a dream of being a policeman (lots of people) and then have that taken away, with people who are facing unemployment and the necessity of a complete career change (depending on why they left, they may not be able to go to any police force), and then add in a pinch of people with weapons training and knowledge of criminal procedure plus a strong sense of justice... it's a wonder this doesn't happen more often. Help these people ahead of time, before they become a danger to themselves or others.

[Alexander's Horse]

yeah looks like suicide is just about the only way out of his nonsense story, suicide by cop has failed so he just disappears, often a good move when building a legend

[PLATO]

Might be better for him if they don't get him alive. Seems these type criminals are housed at a prison named ADX Florence in the Rockies and they have to remain in solitary for 23 hours a day.