Who is this "Martin Luther King" and why does he have his day off today?

[giblets]

Gosh, now why would I do that?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233232/Kerry-Trotter-Man-charged-raping-mentally-disabled-woman-bus-scouring-potential-victims.html

http://www.speroforum.com/a/CHQHWMQPIB10/73452-Evangelical-pastor-charged-with-raping-mentally-handicapped-girl

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...nclick_check=1

So you admit to being mentally handicapped?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Oddly enough ideas of cultural 'blackness' and cultural 'deafness' are not all that different from each other.



You mean to tell me that Confederate generals treated black people like people? You don't say. Wouldn't that defeat the whole 'it was all to free the slaves narrarative?

That narrative fails on different grounds. As does the monolithic south view that it was all 100% about slavery for all the seceding states. That's another thoroughly dead horse though.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran's obviously forgotten what I used to be.

So have you.

[MichaeltheGreat]

STFU you slavery sympathizing little *****. I should have guessed that your 'I have it as bad as the blacks' shtick was just another step in a long line of you being a closet racist. Oh wait stop, here's the part where you tell us how hot you think latino women are.

I don't think ol' Ben is a slavery sympathizer. It's just that multiple sides of the War of Yankee Aggression argument like to sugar coat and simplify a more complex and nuanced reality. Northern sympathy for the plight of slaves was much more a minority view than simple nationalism and the desire to preserve the union (and the not-coincidental hegemony over this hemisphere).

There's no doubt from the historical record that the seven original deep south states seceded to preserve the institution of slavery, but for the other four joiners and three neutral states, the issues were much more nuanced. Virginia soundly rejected secession the first time, and only seceded after Lincoln decided to respond to the fireworks show at Fort Sumter with some cold steel (which incidentally would have marched through Virginia and North Carolina). Unconstitutionally ordered, state provided, trained and funded, but federally controlled non-militia cold steel. Lincoln made a very shrewd and calculated move, and trounced the Constitution in the process.

Nowadays, it's just much easier to say it was all about slavery for everybody.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what do you propose to actually do about it?

That's a good question. The system is broken. The key to me is privatization. Take it out of the education bureaucrats and much of the structural problems go away. Let the community (the real community), take up the reins. We're going to have to set aside money on our own, to help fund deaf kids going away to university and help them get the materials they need to learn. I don't think signing is helpful, but that's going to be a huge, huge fight. *sigh*. So much needs to be done - it's hard to know where to start. You'd need a core of teachers who are willing to go on their own and teach. That's the first step - we don't have even that right now.

[kentonio]

I don't think ol' Ben is a slavery sympathizer. It's just that multiple sides of the War of Yankee Aggression argument like to sugar coat and simplify a more complex and nuanced reality. Northern sympathy for the plight of slaves was much more a minority view than simple nationalism and the desire to preserve the union (and the not-coincidental hegemony over this hemisphere).

There's no doubt from the historical record that the seven original deep south states seceded to preserve the institution of slavery, but for the other four joiners and three neutral states, the issues were much more nuanced. Virginia soundly rejected secession the first time, and only seceded after Lincoln decided to respond to the fireworks show at Fort Sumter with some cold steel (which incidentally would have marched through Virginia and North Carolina). Unconstitutionally ordered, state provided, trained and funded, but federally controlled non-militia cold steel. Lincoln made a very shrewd and calculated move, and trounced the Constitution in the process.

Nowadays, it's just much easier to say it was all about slavery for everybody.

All true, however if you read back over Ben's previous posts on the subject you'll find a lot less understanding of the subject and a lot more cheerleading for the south like a little girl. It's the same thing as when religion comes up and he steadfastly refuses to acknowledge that the Catholic church have been guilty of horrible crimes at any point in their history. It annoys me because I'd actually love a thread about this that was free of Ben bull****.

*EDIT oh and the 'War of Yankee Aggression' line...

[Ben Kenobi]

STFU you slavery sympathizing little *****. I should have guessed that your 'I have it as bad as the blacks' shtick was just another step in a long line of you being a closet racist. Oh wait stop, here's the part where you tell us how hot you think latino women are

I see. I'm racist because I believe that black people, can and should be successful in the professional world? That I believe they can stand on their own two feet? That I believe race hucksters are counterproductive to the whole process? That I believe Obama's disastrous presidency is going to set race relations back 50 years? That I believe affirmative action tells black people that they are inferior to white people? That the Rooney rule is probably the most insulting thing to any black coach, ever? That I liked Herman Cain's Imagine there's no pizza, and longed for a president who actually ran something larger than a 2 man office in Chicago?

That I believe MLK's message was just as valid if he were black or white? That his vision of America was an America where race no longer mattered - that black people were considered upstanding citizens because of their character not their colour of their skin?

Then yes, absolutely. I'm a racist then, for believing that black people have no excuse.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's the same thing as when religion comes up and he steadfastly refuses to acknowledge that the Catholic church have been guilty of horrible crimes

So you believe in collective responsibility?

[Elok]

Stop arguing with Ben, you fumbducks.

[giblets]

Yeah, pick on someone who isn't mentally disabled and proud of reading at above a third grade level.

[MichaeltheGreat]

They should have packed up that fort in Charleston harbor and took it up north after they were notified that their services were no longer required.

Lincoln knew he could push the South Carolinian's buttons easy enough. (Q. Why is the Palmetto the South Carolina state tree? A. Because it's also their family tree - short, prickly, shallow rooted and no branches. ) Send an "unauthorized" messenger to imply and dance around being open to receive an "unofficial" delegation (because the US wouldn't recognize an "official" delegation) from the Sovereign State of South Hotheadia to discuss the purchase or transfer of Ft. Sumter, all the while talking about an "unarmed" resupply mission that "secretely" had 2900 men, tons of ammunition, and 14 additional guns.) So when the intel about the "resupply mission" loadout reached Charleston about the same time as word the "unofficial" delegation had been stiffed because it wasn't "official", ol' Abe knew how the good folks in South Hotheadia would react.

So yeah, I count that Macciavellian set of provocations an act of aggression, because it was designed to force the South Carolinians to defend their sovereignty or bow and scrape like so many poodles.

[kentonio]

They should have packed up that fort in Charleston harbor and took it up north after they were notified that their services were no longer required.

Lincoln knew he could push the South Carolinian's buttons easy enough. (Q. Why is the Palmetto the South Carolina state tree? A. Because it's also their family tree - short, prickly, shallow rooted and no branches. ) Send an "unauthorized" messenger to imply and dance around being open to receive an "unofficial" delegation (because the US wouldn't recognize an "official" delegation) from the Sovereign State of South Hotheadia to discuss the purchase or transfer of Ft. Sumter, all the while talking about an "unarmed" resupply mission that "secretely" had 2900 men, tons of ammunition, and 14 additional guns.) So when the intel about the "resupply mission" loadout reached Charleston about the same time as word the "unofficial" delegation had been stiffed because it wasn't "official", ol' Abe knew how the good folks in South Hotheadia would react.

So yeah, I count that Macciavellian set of provocations an act of aggression, because it was designed to force the South Carolinians to defend their sovereignty or bow and scrape like so many poodles.

Or perhaps to try and force them not break up the union so they could continue to peddle human flesh?

[MichaeltheGreat]

I see. I'm racist because I believe that black people, can and should be successful in the professional world? That I believe they can stand on their own two feet?

It's a lot easier if you're not already born into a set of circumstances that unlevels the playing field. That doesn't just affect minorities or the disabled, it also affects poor whites. In general, fruit doesn't fall far from the trees, and some trees are inherently born in more fertile soil.

That I believe race hucksters are counterproductive to the whole process?

There are those, too, then the anti-AA hucksters who simply sell a different brand of snake oil. Both would be out of business if the problem was solved.

That I believe Obama's disastrous presidency is going to set race relations back 50 years?

I haven't seen signs of the apocolypse yet, but there is a nice white whine industry.

That I believe affirmative action tells black people that they are inferior to white people? That the Rooney rule is probably the most insulting thing to any black coach, ever?

Both poorly designed and implemented, but that doesn't white wash the underlying problems. When you've got guys at a board meeting telling jokes about how no matter how many times you shake a bag of jelly beans, the black ones always settle at the bottom, you've got broader and deeper issues than just some shif'less colored folk.

That I liked Herman Cain's Imagine there's no pizza, and longed for a president who actually ran something larger than a 2 man office in Chicago?

Yeah, ol' Spermin' Herman would have been great. His pizza sucked, too.

That I believe MLK's message was just as valid if he were black or white?

You can't separate the message from the messenger. If Rev. King had been white, he would have just been some dumb yankee fellow traveler preacher talking about things he knew nothing about.

Then yes, absolutely. I'm a racist then, for believing that black people have no excuse.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes, it's excuses. Sometimes it's not. Individual circumstances are different.

[Tuberski]

Do you think that comment really reflects well on you, either? It's one thing to not like someone. It's not like Ben is some third world dictator running his own gulag.

He's a teacher in a catholic school, of course he is.

ACK!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Or perhaps to try and force them not break up the union so they could continue to peddle human flesh?

Read the Emancipation Proclamation in good detail. Word for word. Ol' Abe was willing to let the south keep the serviles, if they just saw the light and came back into the fold. Meanwhile, Delaware was a slave state throughout the war, and yankee banks up north did a fine business financing the acquisition of said human flesh, but with land as collateral.

There was also plenty of good ol' greed, say, the Spragues in Rhode Island with all their mills. The south was set up as the producer of crops and raw materials, with poor liquidity, but economic leverage by control of the raw materials. The north east (which is what counted, politically, in yankeedom) was set up as a commercial and manufacturing hub, with high sensitivity to liquidity (hence the difference in effect of the crash of 1857), and dependence on imported raw materials. So you had a nice, completely assymetric economic rivalry, and the north could only effectively compromise the south's relative economic power through political means, and both side knew this. Hence the obsession with extending slave states and territories further west, where slaves were useless. Sympathetic (or antagonistic) congressional votes, however, that was another story.

Free the slaves! sounds a lot nicer than "stick it to the third world colonial suppliers of resources" but that was closer to the truth for the majority. However, interesting as this discussion is, I don't think it's proper in a civil rights thread.