School Shooting

[Kidlicious]

Someone's been talking to his mother? Would you take the word of a necromancer?

She told one of her friends that before she was killed.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I insist that this is a cultural problem.

Which makes it even more intractible.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Yeah, and nobody who is motivated can ever get illegal items. Making drugs illegal has meant that nobody can get them in the US, and prohibition was very effective too.

It should be exactly the opposite, allow drugs and ban guns. World would be a better place. Interestingly enough guns ban is one of few effective prohibinitions in place, I guess that is due to their nature. They are just not needed or desired on a daily basis, so it is relatively easy to take it out from 99%+ of the population. Only organized criminals keep them afterwards, and that is not so bad after all, as organized criminals are after money or each other and not after mindless murder, while petty criminals do not go after guns either for robberies. UK is a great example of that .

Allowing drugs is both easy to do technically and would bring immediate social benefits, while guns ban would take years to become effective in the US, but eventually you would be able to enjoy the benefits of greatly reducing periodical mass murder sprees. However, as already explained mass murder now and again is a price worth paying for having the potential to self defend with firearms.

[kentonio]

Ideal world: Ban most gun sales and ensure that you are properly defended by instituting reforms of your police and justice departments so that people don't feel like they need an arsenal to sleep at night. Start the inevitably slow process of getting the millions of guns off the street with a phased system of gun hand ins with owners being paid for their weapons. Do this voluntarily for a few years, and then start measures to make ownership of everything other than shotguns and single shot rifles illegal. Offer amnesties for voluntary hand ins even after they are made illegal.

Real world: You're flooded with guns, half your country hates and fears anything connected to government, and not even a school full of infants getting slaughtered is enough to convince the gun nuts that even mild gun controls are needed.

TLDR: Nothings going to change, this is going to keep happening.

[Kidlicious]

Which makes it even more intractible.

I don't think it's impossible. We can change culture. Look at Germany. It had to take losing a war but once the bad guys are out of power people start to change their mind and their behavior. Look at the Civil Rights Movement. It used to be much more acceptable to be a racist and to discriminate but that is changing as those people are losing their power.

[lightblue]

I read yesterday that there are nearly 300 million guns in private hands in the US, which is 50% of ALL guns in private ownership worldwide. The average number of murders by gunshot in the US is about 80/day, this is the same as the UK has in a year. Adjusting for population this is still about 70 times as many. The ease of access to guns makes murdering people with guns easier, and most people that are murdered in their home are done so by a close relative or acquaintance. It is much harder and messier to kill someone with your bare hands or a knife.

This is not even mentioning suicides which are a lot more successful when you have access to a gun rather than having to slit your wrists or take pills. There is much less time to reconsider...

[regexcellent]

Mexico and Brazil have more murders than we do and very strict gun control laws. South Africa has insanely strict gun control laws and an absurdly high murder rate to match. In fact, South Africa is one place where concealed carry and fully legalized guns would prevent a lot of crime.

Our murder rate has to do with drug gangs and inner city violence, not some random gun owner like me or Lonestar or Felch getting angry one day and offing his wife and kids. Part of that is geographical; it's easier to get drugs from South America to the United States than it is to get them to Europe.

It's easy and yet fallacious to make the jump from "America has a lot of guns" and "America has a lot of murders" to "America has a lot of murders because it has a lot of guns."

By the way, those guns aren't going anywhere whether you ban them or not. A new gun will still be shooting a hundred years from now.

[Kidlicious]

The murder rate is misleading but something is happening with the middle class young men and that can't be denied. Things are only going to get worse. Part of me feels guilty because no one ever cared if blacks kill each other, but now white people are killing white people so there's going to be pressure to change things now.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Mexico and Brazil have more murders than we do and very strict gun control laws. South Africa has insanely strict gun control laws and an absurdly high murder rate to match. In fact, South Africa is one place where concealed carry and fully legalized guns would prevent a lot of crime.

This is how far it goes to "support" - you are comparing yourselves with Brazil, Mexico and South Africa! The difference between you and them is order of magnitude better managed police force and general social organization, more like what you have in Europe, Japan, Australia or Canada, at least I thought so...

As for the enforcement, yes it would take years if one tried, but for sure could be more effective than SA one.

It is also about culture change, in Europe do you not think we could be flooded with guns from Russia/rest of the world if there was a desire to keep guns around for "protection". I guess the main difference here is that after WWI and II culture change happened, while it never really materialized in the US, so you have what you have and the occasional massacre + regular ease of murder when you are a bit too upset is the way of life. In UK they do it with knives, you get people and kids die of stab wounds when someone goes beserk, but not 20 at a time.

[dannubis]

Reg, would you agree with a very tight ammunition control? Each round has an ID number and you as a gun / ammunition shop owner are responsible for that number?

[regexcellent]

This is how far it goes to "support" - you are comparing yourselves with Brazil, Mexico and South Africa!

Are you actually retarded? The idea that we can't observe policy results from countries just because they are poorer than us is ****ing stupid. Besides which, Mexico is just as wealthy as many European countries. Europe is actually pretty poor.

The difference between you and them is order of magnitude better managed police force and general social organization, more like what you have in Europe, Japan, Australia or Canada, at least I thought so...

The local and state cops wouldn't even bother enforcing federal gun laws. Monroe County Sheriff's Office, the local police agency where I live, wouldn't give half a ****, and it wouldn't be required to either. And yes, our police are well-organized, but we have a fundamentally larger crime problem here than Europe does. As I said before, we have more issues with inner city gangs and drug abuse. Probably because of proximity to large drug sources. You have to cross a ****ing ocean to get crack to wherever the hell you are.

So you have a fairly small number of federal cops running around trying to round up 300 million ****ing guns, while new ones swarm over the border with Mexico. Good luck!

As for the enforcement, yes it would take years if one tried, but for sure could be more effective than SA one.

The problem with South African gun control is that most of the guns on the street come from weapons smuggled in by the ANC, a former terrorist organization. Also, the police regularly sell their guns to criminals. People would be much safer if they had the right to arm themselves in self-defense. Which, by the way, is a natural right of all people. Which is why even if gun control did work, which it does not, I would be against it. Europeans don't have gun rights because Europeans simply don't believe in rights. Rights are things the government can't stop you from doing. In Europe, governments can for the most part do whatever the **** they want. Which is why Communism and Fascism thrived there but not here. Nobody believes in limited government across the pond.

In the United States all you'd be doing is telling legal gun owners like me to turn over their property (ownership of property being another natural right of all people) while criminals hold on to their caches of weapons. Now law abiding citizens have nothing to protect themselves with and criminals can have a ****ing field day. Great idea.

It is also about culture change, in Europe do you not think we could be flooded with guns from Russia/rest of the world if there was a desire to keep guns around for "protection".

Plenty of places in France (LIKE MARSEILLE!) are flooded with guns. There was, in the last few months, a "mass murder incident" there like the one in Connecticut. An anti-semitic man attacked a bunch of Jewish kids and a rabbi.

As a final note, you're in the Balkans, are you not? Your country flag is that of Croatia. I seem to recall it was only about 15 years ago Croatia was having some serious issues with massacres orders of magnitude worse than the one in Connecticut. Moreover, RIT has a campus in Croatia and a lot of Croatian students attend here. I have a good friend who is from Croatia. Now that he lives here, he is a legal gun owner. He told me that in theory guns are illegal in Croatia, but in practice plenty of people he knew over there were able to get their hands on them. So much for your magical European gun control that solves all crime, huh?

[dannubis]

TURN OFF THE NEWS.......

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

The man has a point...

[dannubis]

bla bla

Finished with masturbating on dead children yet ?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Are you actually retarded? The idea that we can't observe policy results from countries just because they are poorer than us is ****ing stupid. Besides which, Mexico is just as wealthy as many European countries.

So there is no differentiation between poor countries and richer ones on infrastructure and ability to enforce laws? Really - move to a poorer country to see how you rely on governmental services.

Europe is actually pretty poor.

Yes you have from Norway ~ 2x US GDP to Moldava - really poor, so there is variety for sure.

The local and state cops wouldn't even bother enforcing federal gun laws. Monroe County Sheriff's Office, the local police agency where I live, wouldn't give half a ****, and it wouldn't be required to either. And yes, our police are well-organized, but we have a fundamentally larger crime problem here than Europe does. As I said before, we have more issues with inner city gangs and drug abuse. Probably because of proximity to large drug sources. You have to cross a ****ing ocean to get crack to wherever the hell you are.

Police/State cops do as state says, it is just a lack of legalization, that is all.

Also as if there is a problem for goods these days to come from wherever they are to the consumers?

So you have a fairly small number of federal cops running around trying to round up 300 million ****ing guns, while new ones swarm over the border with Mexico. Good luck!

Logistics, and sure good luck, not easy, but again not really impossible.

The problem with South African gun control is that most of the guns on the street come from weapons smuggled in by the ANC, a former terrorist organization. Also, the police regularly sell their guns to criminals. People would be much safer if they had the right to arm themselves in self-defense. Which, by the way, is a natural right of all people. Which is why even if gun control did work, which it does not, I would be against it.

SA as an example with police selling guns to criminals - all validity for your example that you ever needed, what about level of social cohesion where you actually have the police force that does it's work, to a larger degree? Hard in SA given it's history, but pretty much easier in Europe, but I get it, you in US feel more like SA.

Europeans don't have gun rights because Europeans simply don't believe in rights. Rights are things the government can't stop you from doing. In Europe, governments can for the most part do whatever the **** they want. Which is why Communism and Fascism thrived there but not here. Nobody believes in limited government across the pond.

All I can say is

In the United States all you'd be doing is telling legal gun owners like me to turn over their property (ownership of property being another natural right of all people) while criminals hold on to their caches of weapons. Now law abiding citizens have nothing to protect themselves with and criminals can have a ****ing field day. Great idea.

Sure the transition would not be easy, but you could get there, the issue is that you do not want it, and an occasional mass murder + high murder rates, given that anyone who gets extraordinarily upset can pull the trigger... for the perception of self-defense is the price you are OK to pay.

Plenty of places in France (LIKE MARSEILLE!) are flooded with guns. There was, in the last few months, a "mass murder incident" there like the one in Connecticut. An anti-semitic man attacked a bunch of Jewish kids and a rabbi.

Not flooded, but you get terrorist attacks, like that one - overall we are not suffering nearly the same amount of homicides or general mass murder sprees, even though the continent has 2x population comparing to the US.

As a final note, you're in the Balkans, are you not? Your country flag is that of Croatia. I seem to recall it was only about 15 years ago Croatia was having some serious issues with massacres orders of magnitude worse than the one in Connecticut. Moreover, RIT has a campus in Croatia and a lot of Croatian students attend here. I have a good friend who is from Croatia. Now that he lives here, he is a legal gun owner. He told me that in theory guns are illegal in Croatia, but in practice plenty of people he knew over there were able to get their hands on them. So much for your magical European gun control that solves all crime, huh?[/QUOTE]

And so you compare the war here to standard peactime in the US. I am glad you feel so safe. It is also legal to own guns here, plus there are some illegal ones left over from the war which ended less than 20 years ago, but here we had exactly the same action as the one deemed impossible in the US, where the local arms were handed over, and only legal ones kept. Sure not all of it was removed, and I think we still have higher homicide rates comparing to the rest of europe due to this proximity of the war, still nothing of the order like in the US - despite a close war and country being full of firearms of all sorts. Mass murder sprees have not happened either yet, but if someone wanted to do it, for sure it would be easier to do so, than comparing to UK for example.

Contrary to your US expectations, guns can be controlled, they are not necessary for day to day life (unlike drugs or alcohol), and once people get used to not having them, you live your life as usual, freedom and all.

Some stats that I was able to find is that you had a bit more than 9000 firearms murders, while we here had 76, so if you take it on the population (300mil for you and 4.5 mil for us), it is about twice as bad in the US, despite of us having had a recent war. What else can be said, except that gun control works , and we are poor comparing to US standards to boot, you should really be comparing yourselves with Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, as you have the $$$ to make it happen, only if you wanted to, the difference to them is 5x as large, or more, England and Wales as mentioned earlier had 8 firearms related deaths despite being 50+mil people. That is a reasonable target, if we expand it to US population you get 40 firearms related deaths a year, or being generous 100. Compare yourself to that and not to SA.

[giblets]

Finished with masturbating on dead children yet ?

Finished being as poor as Mexico?