In Any War Between The Civilized Man ....

[Ben Kenobi]

Dr. Strangelove seems confused about the concept of a 'civilian'.

[Hauldren Collider]

Hmmmmm.......... You know I seem to recall some country in Europe that made the same claim, i.e., savagery, about Jews some 70 years ago. They made the same claim about the Poles, the Czecks, the Russians.

No one claimed the Jews were savage, they claimed they were insidious/evil/contributing to the destruction of mankind. In the meantime, it is the stated position of the governments of Arab nations that the Jewish state must be destroyed and they don't believe in religious, political, or personal freedoms at basically any level. I'm sorry, but your analogy simply fails.

[Dr Strangelove]

So Islam was there first?

Genetically Palestinians are more Jewish than the Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or the Beta Israel. The diaspora of Roman times did not completely empty the area of Jews. Judea was annexed to the province of Syria, temples were outlawed and during centuries of persecution the remaining population simply found it easier to survive by converting to what ever religion their curreny masters held. Of particular note is that even though histories tell of the area being colonized by Romans during the Roman era and Western Europeans during the Crusades there's little trace of either.

So whether Islam was there first is a moot point. The people of Palestine were there when the British took up the "Mandate". The people living there ought to have had the right to establish immigration policy.

[Hauldren Collider]

So whether Islam was there first is a moot point. The people of Palestine were there when the British took up the "Mandate". The people living there ought to have had the right to establish immigration policy.

No. This entire argument is a pathetic moot point. The Israelis are there now and they aren't leaving. What would YOU do? Force them all out? Christ. While I contend that the migration of Jews to Israel was absolutely justified, I don't see it as relevant at all to the policies of the modern State of Israel. What's done is done. You can't undo it.

[Dr Strangelove]

Dr. Strangelove seems confused about the concept of a 'civilian'.

You're saying that all women and children in Afghanistan and Pakistan should be considered armed combatants.

[Hauldren Collider]

You're saying that all women and children in Afghanistan and Pakistan should be considered armed combatants.

Shouldn't we also distinguish between deliberate attacks on civilians and accidental ones?

[Dr Strangelove]

No one claimed the Jews were savage, they claimed they were insidious/evil/contributing to the destruction of mankind. In the meantime, it is the stated position of the governments of Arab nations that the Jewish state must be destroyed and they don't believe in religious, political, or personal freedoms at basically any level. I'm sorry, but your analogy simply fails.

My allusion to Nazis ideology must have been too obtuse for you. There's an old German propaganda about Jews video on You Tube, the narrator uses the word "savage" when describing Jews several times. I could look it up, but then I'd have to sit through it to mark the times where the narrator uses the word, but I'm going to leave that up to you.

[Hauldren Collider]

If anyone has Nazi ideology, it is the Arab states that officially deny the holocaust. You can't compare Israel's defense of itself against the attacks of terrorists who quite literally hate their freedom (and particularly their Judaism) to the propaganda of the Third Reich. That's just offensive.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're saying that all women and children in Afghanistan and Pakistan should be considered armed combatants.

Intent makes a big difference to me. I see no indication that the US military is specifically targetting civilians. Whereas on the Arab side, yes, yes they do.

You might be willing to write off their behaviour as the 'inevitable consequence' of whatever psuedobabble you believe, some of us believe in holding them responsible for their own barbaric actions.

And yes - it is barbaric. Jews in Israel should have the same thing as the rest of us in the free world - the security of not dying because some Islamist chose to light off a rocket.

[Ben Kenobi]

So whether Islam was there first is a moot point. The people of Palestine were there when the British took up the "Mandate". The people living there ought to have had the right to establish immigration policy.

Where does claiming already owned and occupied land as one's own then moving the inhabitants off of it by force fit into your scheme?

Apparently Doc Strangelove is all for it when it's Jews and Christians being kicked out.

Yes, the Jews were there first. Their claim to the land is based on the fact that they had kingdoms there. Ergo - they should have every right to live in the Holy Land in peace.

If Muslims want to live there too - fine. Key word - in peace. They must accept that the Jews have every right to live there and to live with the same safety and security they bring to everyone else. Why do you think the Muslims want to live there? Duh. Jews good at making money yo and they want to take all the stuff that they don't have away.

You do know the population of the Mandate before the creation of Israel, right? If it was such a beacon of freedom under Islam - why is it that hardly anyone lived there as compared with now?

Fact - more Muslims live in Israel today than lived there under the Mandate. So not only are the muslims not being kicked off their land - they are doing better - with the Jews, than they did on their own.

[Uncle Sparky]

Shouldn't we also distinguish between deliberate attacks on civilians and accidental ones?

Yes. The Pentagon was a hard military target, and with the HQ of the Port Authority and several broadcast and communications towers, so was the World Trade Center. Some civilians may have been killed, but that can be forgiven, right?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes. The Pentagon was a hard military target, and with the HQ of the Port Authority and several broadcast and communications towers, so was the World Trade Center. Some civilians may have been killed, but that can be forgiven, right?

I can't wait to get my citizenship - because then it will mean I never have to tell people that I once lived in the same country as you.

[Aeson]

Why do you think the Muslims want to live there? Duh. Jews good at making money yo and they want to take all the stuff that they don't have away.

Holy places, ancestral land. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with why the Palestinians would want to be there...

You do know the population of the Mandate before the creation of Israel, right? If it was such a beacon of freedom under Islam - why is it that hardly anyone lived there as compared with now?

Sounds suspiciously like you haven't been on this planet for any of the last 90 years. Virtually every area on earth would qualify for your "reasoning" displayed here.

Fact - more Muslims live in Israel today than lived there under the Mandate. So not only are the muslims not being kicked off their land - they are doing better - with the Jews, than they did on their own.

I doubt your claim that Jews are responsible for all the Palestinian pregnancies since the Mandate. (Even though it would explain the Jihad.)

I can't wait to get my citizenship - because then it will mean I never have to tell people that I once lived in the same country as you.

You do realize that citizenship doesn't change where you have lived in the past, right?

[Zevico]

I doubt your claim that Jews are responsible for all the Palestinian pregnancies since the Mandate. (Even though it would explain the Jihad.)

Well, the claim is that Arabs moved from other countries like Syria, Egypt and Jordan in very large numbers to Palestine prior to the establishment of the Jewish state to meet the increased need for labour attendant to the rise in the Jewish population. Google it.
The claim is also that many of those very same Arabs and their descendants reside in Israel by their own choice, rather than attempting to migrate to any other Arab country, or for that matter, the West, even though they had ample opportunity to do so and still do. There is no restrictions preventing their departure and yet there they remain. By stark contrast, there are practically no Jews left anywhere in the Middle Esat because they were intimidated into leaving and sometimes forcibly expelled. Google it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Holy places, ancestral land. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with why the Palestinians would want to be there.

They choose to live in Israel and in greater numbers than prior to Israel's creation. How are they being denied the ability to live in Israel?

What they are being denied is very simple - they are being denied the right to push the Jews out into the sea. The Jews have every right to live in Israel - and the Muslims have to get used to it.

I doubt your claim that Jews are responsible for all the Palestinian pregnancies since the Mandate. (Even though it would explain the Jihad.)

Uh, you have serious reading comprehension issues. What I said is that Muslims are choosing to live in Israel for the greater economic opportunities accorded there - opportunities that are a direct result of Jewish development and liberal democracy. Muslims in general are far better off WITH Jews than without.

You do realize that citizenship doesn't change where you have lived in the past, right?

I will not maintain dual citizenship. I want nothing more to do with Canada. Uncle Sparky's opinion is sadly shared by many Canadians that cheered 9-11 and still piss on it every year.