In Any War Between The Civilized Man ....

[regexcellent]

1. 1963 was a pre-emptive strike against a blatantly obvious upcoming attack by the Arabs.
2. No, learn some history, dufus. 1973 saw HEAVY fighting along the Golan Heights. Israel was at risk of losing its entire north to the Syrians if they hadn't been able to stop their tanks. By the end of the war the Israelis were something like 25 miles from Damascus. It also involved troops and equipment from Iraq and Jordan and nominal or financial support from Tunisia and Algeria.

On the 1967 war: NOBODY (or at least nobody of any academic significance) denies that the Egyptians intended to strike first and simply got ninja'd by the Israelis. The Egyptians blocked navigation to the Strait of Tiran, which the Israelis had already made clear was a casus belli given how crucial the waterway was and remains to the Israeli economy. They were also planning to attack at some point shortly after the Israelis beat them to it. This is, incidentally, also what Egypt did in the '50s which precipitated Israel's participation in the Suez crisis, which it was pretty much otherwise disinterested in. The deal with Britain and France was that Israel would have the opportunity to evict Egyptian forces from Sharm el-Sheikh.

As for 1973, some very good reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Tears

Had the Israelis not held the Golan Heights at the time, they would have been conquered and systematically murdered.

The Valley of Tears is exhibit A of the David and Goliath situation Israel faces. It's a tiny country surrounded by millions of people who want all the Jews dead. The saving grace is that the armies of those countries are staffed by largely illiterate and poorly trained peasants led by thoroughly incompetent officers.

Fun fact about the 1967 war: sleeping pills were in short supply in the weeks leading up to it because holocaust survivors were buying them up in order to use them to commit suicide if the Arabs took over.

Today, the Arabs are no more interested in observing any set of historical borders of Israel than they were at the dates those borders were in place.

[Ben Kenobi]

nothing says 'we want peace' like keeping most gaza on food aid and stealing ever more land in the west bank.

Land that is theirs from the war. They declared war on Israel - Israel won. Israel keeps their land.

[C0ckney]

Land that is theirs from the war. They declared war on Israel - Israel won. Israel keeps their land.

we can see from this post that ben:

1) supports collective punishment.
2) doesn't understand history.
3) can't read or respond to simple sentences in english.

[Al B. Sure!]

Land that is theirs from the war. They declared war on Israel - Israel won. Israel keeps their land.

Kuwait belongs to Iraq!

[regexcellent]

I'm sorry, Al, but that analogy actually doesn't work here...Kuwait didn't declare war on Iraq. Ben's point appears to be that taking the land is suitable punishment for attempting to wipe out Israel.

[DinoDoc]

Kuwait belongs to Iraq!

Iraq lost that war.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben's point appears to be that taking the land is suitable punishment for attempting to wipe out Israel.

Exactly so. If the Arabs wanted to keep the land that they were awarded under the mandate - they should not have declared war on Israel. They lost - Israel fought back and defeated them. That is what gives Israel the right to govern Gaza and the West Bank.

[Elok]

I'm sorry, Al, but that analogy actually doesn't work here...Kuwait didn't declare war on Iraq. Ben's point appears to be that taking the land is suitable punishment for attempting to wipe out Israel.

I understand the 4th Geneva Convention (IIRC) disagrees with him on that. Or, at least, on the putting-civilians-there part of it.

[Al B. Sure!]

If the Arabs wanted to keep the land that they were awarded under the mandate

Why were the Arabs 'awarded' anything? It was their land to begin with.

What right does Europe have to divide the world up and say who gets what?

[regexcellent]

What does it matter since it happened so goddamn long ago? You're talking about real people with real lives, whose lives have been in one place for generations.

[Al B. Sure!]

What does it matter since it happened so goddamn long ago? You're talking about real people with real lives, whose lives have been in one place for generations.

1) The Holocaust happened so goddamn long ago
2) Palestinians must not be real people with real lives in your world.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why were the Arabs 'awarded' anything? It was their land to begin with.

What right does Europe have to divide the world up and say who gets what?

It was Turkish land. Why do the Turks get to divide the world up and say who gets what?

Had the Turks sided with the Allies - it would have stayed Turkish to. But they declared war on the UK.

[Al B. Sure!]

It was Turkish land. Why do the Turks get to divide the world up and say who gets what?

Had the Turks sided with the Allies - it would have stayed Turkish to. But they declared war on the UK.

Umm besides not being relevant, you do realize the UK declared war on the Ottoman Empire FIRST, right?

UK declared war November 5th; the Ottoman Empire declared war November 14th.

[Ben Kenobi]

besides not being relevant

It's quite relevant. The reason there was a mandate in the first place is the consequence of the Turkish alliance with Germany and Austria - Hungary.

The Austrian Empire declared war on Serbia 28th of July, 1914.
The German Empire declared war on Russia, 1st of August 1914.

Turkey joined the Central Powers, 2nd of August 1914.

The German Empire declared war on France 3rd of August 1914
Britain declares war on the German Empire 4th of August 1914.

you do realize the UK declared war on the Ottoman Empire FIRST, right?

Turkey joined the Central Powers the day after they declared war on Russia, and the day before they declared war on France, two days before Britain declared war on Germany.

They were a legitimate target the moment they joined the Central Powers. Had they stayed out - they would not have gotten involved in the war. Instead - they chose to not only stay in, but ally with the Central Powers.

Had they not jumped in - they would have kept the Levant and there never would have been a mandate in the first place. But, they chose to join - declared themselves to be the enemies of the Entente.

[Aeson]

Well, the claim is that Arabs moved from other countries like Syria, Egypt and Jordan in very large numbers to Palestine prior to the establishment of the Jewish state to meet the increased need for labour attendant to the rise in the Jewish population. Google it.

That is not BK's claim. He said simply, "Fact - more Muslims live in Israel today than lived there under the Mandate. So not only are the muslims not being kicked off their land - they are doing better - with the Jews, than they did on their own."

He is obviously crediting the Jews with any Palestinian births in that timeframe since his only metric for "better" is that there is increased population. You're a moron to try to support such a moronic argument with your strawmen. Google it.

The claim is also that many of those very same Arabs and their descendants reside in Israel by their own choice, rather than attempting to migrate to any other Arab country, or for that matter, the West, even though they had ample opportunity to do so and still do. There is no restrictions preventing their departure and yet there they remain.

Yes, they are free to leave their homes, their holy land, and the place of their birth/ancestral land (for most of them).

There is no restrictions preventing their departure and yet there they remain.

There are only restrictions preventing their immigration to most places in the world. "You are free to leave here" is meaningless if there is no (or very limited) "you are free to come here".

By stark contrast, there are practically no Jews left anywhere in the Middle Esat because they were intimidated into leaving and sometimes forcibly expelled. Google it.

Completely irrelevant to BK's stupid comments or my retort. Google it.