Catholic Church has skeptic arrested for explaining miracle

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, ok. I was under the impression that you believed that people were intrinsically good. If I'm wrong about that, correct me please.

As with most things, my views were a bit more nuanced - people have bits of intrinsic good and intrinstic bad within them (mostly due to evolutionary impulses - some are pro-selfish and some are pro-group).

Nowadays, I have... well, somewhat similar views. We are all made good and perfect by God, but also have sinned against God and thereby turned against him. So while are natures are self-interested and sinful, we still have that divine spark inside of us. & sometimes it leads us even before we've come to God. So I kind of reject the "Total Depravity" view of human nature.

[Ben Kenobi]

So I kind of reject the "Total Depravity" view of human nature.

Yeah, interesting that you're the protestant here. Catholicism rejects Calvin's theories on predestination (going so far as to argue the opposite, that many who are outside the Church will be saved, and essentially we have no way of knowing that anyone is saved), but they teach the same thing as Calvin on human nature. That's why we have confession because we are sinners in need of redemption, and we need help keeping the Commandments. I guess it's less of a big deal for us - you sinned - go to confession, work it out with God and don't do it again.

I'm very much an Augustianian, for anyone who knows what that means. This doctrine originates from him.

I'm also an Arminian, except for the fact that I believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was efficacious for everyone, including non believers. I believe divine grace can be resisted.

This is a rather interesting discussion, it's rare that I get to talk about theology that hasn't changed for me since my conversion. I've spend so much time on the stuff that did change...

[DinoDoc]

I'm actually somewhat of a fan of panentheism. God is distinct, but He is in all things and all people.

God is a Midichlorian?

[Ben Kenobi]

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

[-Jrabbit]

- me I liked Calvin and Hobbes, very, very different perspective.

Fixed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, interesting that you're the protestant here. Catholicism rejects Calvin's theories on predestination (going so far as to argue the opposite, that many who are outside the Church will be saved, and essentially we have no way of knowing that anyone is saved), but they teach the same thing as Calvin on human nature. That's why we have confession because we are sinners in need of redemption, and we need help keeping the Commandments. I guess it's less of a big deal for us - you sinned - go to confession, work it out with God and don't do it again.

I'm very much an Augustianian, for anyone who knows what that means. This doctrine originates from him.

I'm also an Arminian, except for the fact that I believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was efficacious for everyone, including non believers. I believe divine grace can be resisted.

This is a rather interesting discussion, it's rare that I get to talk about theology that hasn't changed for me since my conversion. I've spend so much time on the stuff that did change...

Hey, Arminius was a Protestant as well!!! There is too much of a tendancy (IMO) to have Calvinist teaching (or "Reformed") stand in for all of Protestantism. When a massive chunk of Protestantism is against predestination (Anglicanism, Methodism, Pentecostalism, Baptists, etc). Also Arminius (or at least Arminianism) does teach that Christ's sacrifice was for everyone and grace may be resisted.

I believe we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but my views of "original sin" are ever evolving. I'm not sure I'm with either Augustine or Calvin on it, but I haven't necessarily delved super deeply on it.

[Ben Kenobi]

to have Calvinist teaching (or "Reformed") stand in for all of Protestantism.

Bearing in mind that Arminius was Dutch Reformed as well. Between Zwingli, Arminius and Calvin, the Reformed folks did most of the heavy lifting. Mennonites borrow very heavily from Arminius and Zwingli, depending on the doctrine.

I believe we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but my views of "original sin" are ever evolving. I'm not sure I'm with either Augustine or Calvin on it, but I haven't necessarily delved super deeply on it.

It's part of what lead me to Catholicism. Discussions of original sin lead me to a Catholic understanding of Mary, and away from Protestantism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Between Zwingli, Arminius and Calvin, the Reformed folks did most of the heavy lifting.

Tut tut. Let us not forget Luther and Melanchthon.

[Ben Kenobi]

True, Melanchthon is a rarity. He wasn't one of ours. More protestants should know and study him. He always upheld the Real Presence.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I know y'all aren't fond of Luther - but he was foremost on that one . He also had far more respect for the Virgin Mary than a lot of the Protestants who came after him.

[Ben Kenobi]

I know y'all aren't fond of Luther - but he was foremost on that one . He also had far more respect for the Virgin Mary than a lot of the Protestants who came after him.

Yeah, and he also had anabaptists burned at stake. My animosity towards Luther has nothing to do with Catholicism.

[Kidlicious]

Yeah, interesting that you're the protestant here. Catholicism rejects Calvin's theories on predestination (going so far as to argue the opposite, that many who are outside the Church will be saved, and essentially we have no way of knowing that anyone is saved), but they teach the same thing as Calvin on human nature. That's why we have confession because we are sinners in need of redemption, and we need help keeping the Commandments. I guess it's less of a big deal for us - you sinned - go to confession, work it out with God and don't do it again.

I'm very much an Augustianian, for anyone who knows what that means. This doctrine originates from him.

I'm also an Arminian, except for the fact that I believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was efficacious for everyone, including non believers. I believe divine grace can be resisted.

This is a rather interesting discussion, it's rare that I get to talk about theology that hasn't changed for me since my conversion. I've spend so much time on the stuff that did change...

In post #163 you said that if anyone wanted to know you they should read Kierkegaard. In this post you seem to agree with Imran that humans are only different from God by degree, not qualitatively different from God as Kierkegaard said we are. What should we read in Kierkegaard that tells us about you?

[Ben Kenobi]

In post #163 you said that if anyone wanted to know you they should read Kierkegaard. In this post you seem to agree with Imran that humans are only different from God by degree, not qualitatively different from God as Kierkegaard said we are. What should we read in Kierkegaard that tells us about you?

No, I believe that we are qualitatively different from God. Same as Soren. Check your inbox.

[Kidlicious]

No, I believe that we are qualitatively different from God. Same as Soren. Check your inbox.

Got it. Have you read The Sickness Unto Death by Kierkegaard? He believed that anxiety preceded the origianal sin, and that in each human being anxiety comes before sin. And that human beings sin not because Adam sinned, but because they have anxiety.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Do you mean The Concept of Anxiety rather?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_Anxiety

And where do you get the silly idea that I think we are different from God merely from degrees? God is not human, nor does He likely resemble any of us (image of God meaning that we are to mirror God's will and love, not look exactly like Him).