Catholic Church has skeptic arrested for explaining miracle

[Ben Kenobi]

The Body and Spirit of a person are seperate, but they CANNOT exist without the other. People who think that the spirit will leave the body and the spirit will live with God somewhere else haven't read 1 Corinthians 15.

Yep, exactly so. Our bodies come along for the ride. This is why we shouldn't sin against our own bodies. Well said.

Christ will come again to make things right and reconcile the world to himself, but we are responsible for helping to "put out the red carpet" as it were. The line in Thessalonians about us meeting Christ in the air as he comes down isn't (as you know) about the rapture, but as a welcoming party. Christ will complete all things, but we are called to help and do His work here so that He is more welcome when he does arrive again.

Uh, that comes after tribulation. I'm not sure there will be many of us left. The bible explicitly says that the world is going to destroy itself and try to crush all the believers. They won't succeed, but it's not like it's going to be a party.

So you are saying he was double talking? After all, regardless of what the Pope indicated in Sublimus Dei, his words are clearly in favor of slavery in Dum Diversas and Romanus Pontifex as quoted by gribbler above.

Pope has limited authority over the Catholic monarchy in Spain, especially in this particular time where half the Catholic world is Spain. I have journals of Catholic priests that were sent back saying that the natives needed protection and that it was the duty of the Church to aid the downtrodden. Then you have the apparition of Our Lady at Guadaloupe. Do you know how singificant an event that was? The symbolism back then was plainly obvious to both the Spanish and the Mexicans. These were Her Children, just the same as the rest of us. It's like God himself coming down and laying the smackdown.

You want more than anything to paint the Church as evil, but the problem is that the actual history doesn't fit the narrative. We haven't got into the Catholics themselves who were enslaved for centuries.

The only backpedeling I can see is yours. For you cannot bear to call out anything the Catholic Church has done in its long history.

Hey, I believe in honest reporting. That means not leaving out the crucial piece of evidence that exposes your position as a fraud. Reporting every other papal bull he issued other than this one? Can you be anymore biased?

[giblets]

"We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_diversas

This has already been quoted in this thread. Please learn to read. No one has claimed that muslims and pagans never did any such things, by the way.

[Kidlicious]

Way to fall for the lies of inner spirituality Christianity - designed to prevent Christians from actually changing this world.

I see, so you are outright calling the Bible a lie. That's the source that I'm using, so that's what you're doing. I never said Christians shouldn't change the world. As Paul said, we fight against the forces of darkness.

He came as Ruler of Heaven and Earth.

Excuse me but that's just wrong. Ceasar was ruler. That is a historical fact.

The Messiah, the Annointed One.

And your understanding of what that means is just as wrong as the Jews understanding of that.

What exactly do you think "Lord" means, Kid?

It means the one you serve. Did Ceasar serve Christ? No. As clearly said in the Bible he did not.

It is to Jesus we owe our allegiance, not the kings of the world, for He is the one true King and Caesar is simply trying to take his seat.

Ceasar's will was done. Ceasar didn't just try to take his seat. Ceasar was Emperor. Jesus was crucified. Again, this is historical fact.

As for the early Christians & apostles, why do you think they were killed? For trying to start a new religion? No, Rome had tons of them. It was because they claimed Jesus was the true King, not Caesar!

Well if Jesus was the earthly king how could they be killed?

Way to un-revolutionize Jesus's message .

Just the opposite is the case. Christianity is the only religion of it's type. It is the only religion were God does not rule the earthly realm but the earthly realm is ruled by the evil one. You are the only de-revolutionizing christianity and trying to turn it into a run of the mill religion.

The confusion as to which type of King was due to the fact that the Jews expected him to come as a VIOLENT CONQUERER, using warfare to defeat the enemies of Isreal.

And so do all politicians and kings. In fact this country was started through violence. But you think Jesus was behind that violence.

They didn't expect the King to come with peace and forgiveness and sevice and sacrifice. That makes him no less of a King, but one who fights (Satan & Earthly empires and wickedness) in a different way.

No, the Jews expected the Messiah to bring peace and forgiveness. What they didn't expect was Jesus who had no designs on earthly authority whatsoever, and only wanted to heal people spiritually. Jesus did not want to build up the Jewish nation like the Jews wanted him to. Similarly Jesus has no interest in your political goals, only your spiritual goals.

Remember the Lord's Prayer:

"Your will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"

We are called to effect God's purpose on Earth, not to remove ourselves from it.

Ummm, yes and where do you get the idea that God's purpose is to free the slaves. Jesus talks about freeing people from the bondage of sin. This is God's will. This is what we are to pray for. It's fine to pray for material things, but you have to realize that this world is ruled by Satan and will remain so until the second advent. There is nothing in the Bible that says otherwise, and you are twisting things around.

Look at that word "originate". Jesus's Kingdom originates from Heaven, but it is to COME to Earth (Your Kingdom Come). Read your Revelation, the New Jerusalem shall come from Heaven onto Earth and a new Heaven and a new Earth shall arise and the dead will rise and we shall be living together with God again as in Eden.

What did Pilot ask Jesus? You are clearly graspinig at straws here.

[Ben Kenobi]

This has already been quoted in this thread. Please learn to read.

Odd how you left out the one papal bull that disproves your assertion entirely.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran referred to them as victims of slavery. Ergo my response was warranted. FFS, victims when they were running the show?

"We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery

to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery

These Saracens reduced to "perpetual slavery" are the... ones running the show? Kind of crappy show for them.

Your blatent lies are inappropriate for a follower of God. I shall pray for your soul.

[giblets]

Odd how you left out the one papal bull that disproves your assertion entirely.

Dum Diversas [English: 'Until different'] is a papal bull issued on 18 June 1452 by Pope Nicholas V, that is credited by some with "ushering in the West African slave trade."[1] It authorized Afonso V of Portugal to conquer Saracens and pagans and consign them to "perpetual slavery."[2] Pope Calixtus III reiterated the bull in 1456 with Etsi cuncti, renewed by Pope Sixtus IV in 1481 and Pope Leo X in 1514 with Precelse denotionis.

Apparently there were other papal bulls with the same message....

Then finally, 80 years later, a different pope criticizes slavery:

In 1537 pope Paul III condemned "unjust" enslavement of non-Christians in Sublimus Dei [10] but he sanctioned slavery in Rome in 1545, the enslavement of Henry VIII in 1547 and the purchase of Muslim slaves in 1548

Oops, seems like he was sending mixed messages.

But that's okay, we'll just say he was "a man of his time" and shouldn't be judged since muslims of the time were enslaving people anyways.

After all, if muslims were "running the show" in the Ottoman empire and enslaving Christians, why should blacks in west africa complain about slavery?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Uh, that comes after tribulation. I'm not sure there will be many of us left. The bible explicitly says that the world is going to destroy itself and try to crush all the believers. They won't succeed, but it's not like it's going to be a party.

I thought the Catholic Church wasn't one to believe in a "Great Tribulation". As an amillenialist myself, I don't think any tribulation will be that extended (you know, for the sake of the elect the those days shall be shortened and all that).

[Kidlicious]

The Body and Spirit of a person are seperate, but they CANNOT exist without the other. People who think that the spirit will leave the body and the spirit will live with God somewhere else haven't read 1 Corinthians 15.

Christ will come again to make things right and reconcile the world to himself, but we are responsible for helping to "put out the red carpet" as it were. The line in Thessalonians about us meeting Christ in the air as he comes down isn't (as you know) about the rapture, but as a welcoming party. Christ will complete all things, but we are called to help and do His work here so that He is more welcome when he does arrive again.



.

You think there is going to be a welcoming party? "I looked on as he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as funeral clothing, and the entire moon turned red as blood. the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its fruit when shaken by a strong wind. The sky disappeared like a scroll being rolled up, adn every mountain adn island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the Lamb's wrath! The great day of their wrath has come, adn who is able to stand?'" - Revelations 6:12-17

[Elok]

Few things are sillier than an extended, impassioned argument over the exact sequence of a series of future events which none of the arguers has the slightest bit of power over.

[dannubis]

You think there is going to be a welcoming party? "I looked on as he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as funeral clothing, and the entire moon turned red as blood. the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its fruit when shaken by a strong wind. The sky disappeared like a scroll being rolled up, adn every mountain adn island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the Lamb's wrath! The great day of their wrath has come, adn who is able to stand?'" - Revelations 6:12-17

Written by a guy sitting alone on an island for more than a year with nothing but mushrooms to eat...

[Imran Siddiqui]

You think there is going to be a welcoming party? "I looked on as he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as funeral clothing, and the entire moon turned red as blood. the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its fruit when shaken by a strong wind. The sky disappeared like a scroll being rolled up, adn every mountain adn island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the Lamb's wrath! The great day of their wrath has come, adn who is able to stand?'" - Revelations 6:12-17

Who should hide from wrath but those who are wicked? After all, if you follow your Thessalonians, the dead have risen and the righteous have joined the Lord as he comes down to Earth. Will the good not welcome their Lord as he sets the world right? As he restores creation to its intended state?

Though, Elok is correct. I just think the Evangelical mindset that we are leaving this horrible place called Earth is horrible theology that leads to a belief that we shouldn't give a darn what happens to the planet because we're just leaving anyways.

[Elok]

I shall pray for your soul.

In context, this comes off as extremely passive-aggressive. You do know that praying for bad people to become right (with the tacit "like me" appended) is a gateway drug to Pharisee-hood, don't you? I'm just saying, be careful about that--the Nietzsche quote about fighting monsters comes to mind...

[Kidlicious]

Few things are sillier than an extended, impassioned argument over the exact sequence of a series of future events which none of the arguers has the slightest bit of power over.

I'm not arguing over something as trivial as that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

In context, this comes off as extremely passive-aggressive. You do know that praying for bad people to become right (with the tacit "like me" appended) is a gateway drug to Pharisee-hood, don't you? I'm just saying, be careful about that--the Nietzsche quote about fighting monsters comes to mind...

Was meant to be a brush off... though probably a bit too mean.

[Kidlicious]

Who should hide from wrath but those who are wicked? After all, if you follow your Thessalonians, the dead have risen and the righteous have joined the Lord as he comes down to Earth. Will the good not welcome their Lord as he sets the world right? As he restores creation to its intended state?

Of course the good will welcome the Lord. I'm talking about the kings, nobles and generals. You know, those with earthly authority. That verse makes it clear that they have authority on earth up until that point. Then they lose it. It is Second Advent when Jesus becomes king in the earthly sense, not sooner. It's very important to know that God is not responsible for politics. It's nice to think about the slaves being free, but look at all the corruption, war etc... If God freed the slaves then he also makes war. This is not so.

Though, Elok is correct. I just think the Evangelical mindset that we are leaving this horrible place called Earth is horrible theology that leads to a belief that we shouldn't give a darn what happens to the planet because we're just leaving anyways.

Is anyone for slavery? No. Carelessness is a sin. Don't choose your doctrine based on what others believe. Choose it based on what the bible says and ignore all that politics and worldly philosophy.