Is the US economy in recession?

[Jaguar]

We always care about poverty, MrFun.

Isn't it confusing when you expect to debate a strawman, and instead find yourself confronting real men of flesh and blood?

[Aeson]

Or rather ... nerds of 1's and 0's

[giblets]

Since when do you care about the poverty rate?

Since he deemed it convenient.

[Jaguar]

Yes, yes, we all hate poor people because we support American capitalism and we think a 2.3% excise tax on medical devices is a bad idea. Any indication that we actually care about people is obviously posturing, just so we can sneakily kill off even more excellent policies that help the poor, like "Cash for Clunkers" and subsidies for green golf courses in Bessemer, Alabama.

[giblets]

When's the last time Dinodoc posted something that looked compassionate?

[DinoDoc]

Is this what passes for a retort?

[Ben Kenobi]

I lead off in the very first statement with the qualification that there have been times where we aren't at full employment

Ok. Here's how it goes. We work on each of the factual statements, one at a time.

1. Is the US under full employment or 'near full employment' at present? No.
2. Overall wages have dropped since the start of the recession, while the minimum wage has risen.
3. Paying people more than their labour is worth results in an oversupply of labour.
4. An oversupply of labour results in one of two things - a drop in the price of labour or a cut in hours. Since the price cannot be dropped the hours will be cut.

Your entire argument is rooted on the misconception that without minimum wage your employer would have offered you more hours without changing your wages in anything approaching a realistic ratio.

I know this for a fact because when I made an agreement to drop my effectual wage down - I finally got to work fulltime. I simply worked off the books. I was more than happy to do so, as I doubled my takehome pay.

You might spread it around differently, but there still minimum wage jobs and minimum wage workers.

For the individual worker, it makes a huge difference whether they work 20 hours or 40.

In real dollars it's the same as "keeping the minimum wage where it is".

Only if you assume they are independent variables. They are not. They are dependent variables.

You just want to name drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jv1Zae0sgo

Here's a youtube video. Get yourself a cheap economics education.

The evidence is 40 years of near total employment, sans the already (and always) noted exceptions that are obviously due to other factors.

This fails the falsifiability criterion of empirical evidence. If employment drops, you blame other factors. Ergo, the theory cannot be proven wrong. Let's see some actual empirical data.

Taken as a whole they were extraordinarily evil of course. Anyone who thinks that enslaving entire civilizations isn't evil is likely evil themselves.

Who is they? The Japanese were extremely evil? But they aren't white devils? How can this be, only the white devils are evil?

You're a moron if you think this is "most recessions".

You're right. Most presidents are bright enough not to increase the minimum wage during a recession.

You just got done implying that it was the sole reason

Damn, son, you sure like your strawmen. Please quote me where I say the sole reason for the recession was due to the increase in the minimum wage law. I explicitly said just the opposite. If you can't quote it, you got it wrong.

There is nowhere in the US that can support labor (meaning there's an economic interest to start with) that can't support $7.25/hr labor.

This is based on what evidence? There are occupations that are exempt from federal minimum wage laws - and there are training wages, etc. Lots of loopholes. The underground economy is evidence this is in fact false.

It was obvious you had never been there yourself.

Hahahaha, no. I have evidence that I've been in New Mexico 3 times.

I don't hate Texas.

We don't let backwaters get too far out of line of what the general consensus of the US is.

Yep, sonny, Gen U Wine TX hater brigade.

They can't force it onto the rest of us like you were claiming they were trying.

They sure can. That's what the raise in the federal minimum wage is all about. Does TX have veto powers? No? Then I guess they can pass it without TX's consent.

You keep harping about your disability.

Answer the question, Aeson. What percentage of deaf people graduate from college? I'm bringing this up to drive home a point for which you are blissfully unaware.

You aren't making any sense

Ok, I'll simplify it for you. Person A works for a Union. We'll call it the Obama Free Lunch Brigade. They specialize in making lunches with arugula for the President. If the president isn't around in their community, they eat the lunches themselves. By federal mandate, (according to their contract, signed by Obama and the union), they are guaranteed thrice the minimum wage.

Say minimum wage is raised a dollar. How many full time minimum wage employees will it take to equal one of the Free Lunch Brigade?

Your point what that there was inflation on durable goods.

I said it because everybody's got to buy food.

Now you've got food at 3.5%, which means that minimum wage jumped by ~25% and food jumped by... 3.5% in one year

It was 4.5 the year previous too. Most of the jump has already been eaten away because that's how the economy works. Minimum wage raises result in jumps in inflation, particularly for food. They aren't independent variables, Aeson.

This is why I said you shouldn't insult Jaguar by pretending your arguments in regard to fiscal policy are anything alike.

True, unlike you, he actually has something to contribute to the discussion. We've had some quite enjoyable conversations over this exact topic.

There is no need to try for more deflation than has already occurred.

There's no need to try for it. It will happen - the banks just have to stop trying to stimulate the economy and chasing good money after bad. Bad investments have to eventually translate into losses.

The Philippines were not in any sort of position to sail to Spain and colonize it.

And why not?

As for if Spain had kept the Philippines, I'm not sure how much different it would be. Bohol especially, as they had already won a revolt against the Spanish. The main effects would probably have been not having help from the Americans as soon in WWII, and perhaps not being treated as harshly by the Japanese (not sure on this).

The Philippines wouldn't be a republic for starters. Look at Indonesia. The Philippines would likely be a junta. That is, if they weren't still Japanese.

You want people to suffer more just to suffer more.

Nope, I want the books balanced so we stop spending money we don't have. That means cutbacks.

He didn't tell you to help the poor though ... you must have skipped those chapters.

He sure did. He said to help the poor, with my own money. You must have missed that part. Stealing from other people to 'give to the poor' is wrong. Charity is voluntary. From the heart so to speak, and you should know that's why it's called Charity.

Charity didn't build the US economic engine.

I must have miss that part about ol' Carnegie. How do you think the majority of the industrialists who built America were educated?

Unless the good is what you think it should do

Nope, I don't think you should have to pay for stuff that I like, anymore than I should pay for stuff you like. That's what true freedom is about.

Unless it's what BK thinks is good.

Damn, I drafted the US constitution? News to me.

I thought you just said it wasn't 2007.

This was worth the whole, conversation, btw.

How long did it take you to find a job. How about once you got to Texas?

Umm, you seem to have reading comprehension issues. I was offered the job in Texas and moved down to take the job. It took me 3 years to find one.

There are very bad results from following your logic all the way down the rabit hole.

Yeah, disabled people actually obtaining vital work experience and skills that they will carry their whole life so that they can actually become productive citizens.

The budget problems have nothing to do with minimum wage. To the extent unions are a problem, it's just a red herring in regards to minimum wage. If you cut minimum wage, unions would just negotiate back to the level of compensation they have proven they can already demand. If you don't raise minimum wage, unions will still get there.

Fixed minimum wage increases amount to fixed wage increases for the public sector unions, which, last I checked, is by far the biggest budgetary expense for most levels of government. Expanding this by giving them increases beyond what the private sector receives is precisely the opposite of what should happen.

[DaShi]

Is this what passes for a retort?

Don't be jealous that his response is better than any of yours.

[Jaguar]

When's the last time Dinodoc posted something that looked compassionate?

I care more about being compassionate than about looking compassionate. If Dinodoc wanted to look compassionate, he'd devise elaborate intellectual schema to deny revealed preferences. He'd cultivate a willful ignorance of capital formation. And he'd pretend that relevant economic elasticities are zero for any policy designed by well-intentioned leftists.

But he doesn't do that. He selflessly votes Republican, lets you guys slander him, and quietly helps keep the US the least poor country in the entire world. That, I think, is being compassionate.

[DaShi]

DD only cares about these issues when he's criticizing a democrat or their policies. This makes his positions inseparable from partisan bickering and certainly not in the spirit of open debate. But you're not interested in that either. So, whatever.

[Ben Kenobi]

just so we can sneakily kill off even more excellent policies that help the poor, like "Cash for Clunkers" and subsidies for green golf courses in Bessemer, Alabama.

You left out the General Motors bailout.

[giblets]

I care more about being compassionate than about looking compassionate. If Dinodoc wanted to look compassionate, he'd devise elaborate intellectual schema to deny revealed preferences. He'd cultivate a willful ignorance of capital formation. And he'd pretend that relevant economic elasticities are zero for any policy designed by well-intentioned leftists.

But he doesn't do that. He selflessly votes Republican, lets you guys slander him, and quietly helps keep the US the least poor country in the entire world. That, I think, is being compassionate.

He doesn't care about appearing or actually being compassionate.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have, and still am. I found out that with my monthly expenses working at a minimum wage job, or one that pays a dollar more than minimum wage, that I cannot afford to live on my own. I can't even afford to rent an efficiency apartment.

You're just finding this out now? Wow. Mr. Fun, I hate to say it, but you've had a sheltered life.

[Jaguar]

He doesn't care about appearing or actually being compassionate.

Why do you think it's acceptable to say things like this?

[giblets]

Why do you think it's acceptable to say things like this?

It's the impression I've gotten from reading Dinodoc's posts. Should I lie and say I think he's super nice?