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Canada declares war on Catholicism

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  • Canada declares war on Catholicism

    Or that's what many Catholics will have you believe.

    Ontario is passing an anti-bullying law, which the Catholic Church is naturally opposing, because such laws go against everything Christianity stands for (right?).

    They're throwing a tantrum over a clause which allows students to form Gay-Straight Alliance clubs in public schools, clubs that exist to promote inclusion for gay students who are very frequently bullied and ostracized.


    Ontario Archbishop chooses the wrong cause to play the martyr

    This week, Cardinal Thomas Collins, the Archbishop of Toronto, issued a long statement protesting against the Liberal Ontario government’s announcement that its anti-bullying legislation, Bill 13, will include specific language protecting school groups supporting gay students. In an important reversal, the bill now states that the students must be allowed to call their clubs Gay-Straight Alliances (GSAs) or a similar name if they so choose.

    No more euphemisms. If anyone’s interested, the names The Sensitive Youth Association, The Just-Haven’t-Met-the-Right-Girl-Yet Choristers and The Very Close-Knit Society of Right Girls are now up for grabs.

    Sadly, Cardinal Collins seems to view this admirable move, born of long consultation with students, as tantamount to forcing the junior kindergarten to hold story time down in the catacombs. “When religious freedom becomes a second-class right, you also will eventually be affected,” he ominously warned members of other religious groups.

    If there’s a God, and he happens to be on the side of the Catholics, I’m pretty sure he responded by saying something like “Nooooo!” and banging his head against a cloud. Clearly, if one had a vested interest in keeping the Catholic school system alive, one would seek to draw as few comparisons as possible between Catholics, who receive $7-billon annually in provincial funding for their schools, and other religions, whose schools receive none.

    The Cardinal may not get as much sympathy as he is expecting from the general public on this matter: When it comes to religious freedom, most people draw a clear distinction between you going to whatever church picnic you choose and the rest of us being forced to cater it.

    I imagine there are groups out there who would gladly call their school Our Lady of RuPaul to get a piece of the Catholic-school budget, so it might not go over well to all, but add yourself to the long list of Catholic martyrs because you’re being told that it’s impossible to create a welcoming, inclusive, safe environment for gay students if you won’t even let them use the word “gay.”

    This might be the wrong fight to pick: Polls show that most people in Ontario support the existence of GSAs.

    GSAs don’t make kids gay. No one says, “I don’t have anything after school on Tuesdays, and I can’t play chess. I think I’ll be gay!”

    These clubs are being founded by students who have specifically identified the bullying of gay students as a distinct issue and who aim to offer peer support because most people, and ironically Catholics are very big on this one, are against suicide – which is too often the outcome of being gay, alone and bullied at school.

    I’m skeptical of Cardinal Collins’s claim that Catholic schools can be “loving and welcoming places for everyone” when the Pastoral Guidelines distributed by bishops to aid Catholic schools in dealing with issues of sexuality state that “sexual activity which is outside marriage cannot be condoned, and is taught by the church to be immoral. This includes masturbation, fornication and adultery, and sexual activity with a person of the same sex.”

    Catholic doctrine is – and once again, they have been very frank about this – entirely incompatible with the idea that gay sexuality is as valid as any other form of human sexuality. Therefore, the teachings of that church are incompatible with equality as defined by our laws. In a secular society, this conversation should have ended 15 years ago.

    By fighting so hard against its own students’ compassionate impulses to help one another, the Catholic school board is hastening a battle it will inevitably lose.

    I don’t believe for a second that the Cardinal, or most other Catholics, want gay kids to be tormented in their schools. The problem is that dealing with the issue “using methods that are in harmony with the faith we cherish,” as the Cardinal asks to be allowed to do, means that an exceptionally vulnerable minority will be told that it is a sin to act on or even fantasize about any attraction to a member of the same sex at any point in their lifetime.

    Going to school every day under the weight of being a walking, breathing sin is bound to cause hopelessness. And when we invest in education, a state of hopelessness is the very opposite of what we hope to achieve.

    These young people aren’t asking merely for tolerance of something church authorities deem to be a sin. They’re not asking for non-sinners’ prayers to be aimed at healing their most profound longings – in essence, at who they are. They’re asking to be safe, equal and gay, gay, gay.

    Say it a few times. You’ll get used to it.

    Gay-straight alliances should be allowed their own name

    Denying gay students the right to join a club with heterosexual students under the name gay-straight alliance is deeply harmful to them. That is what Ontario’s publicly funded Roman Catholic schools insist on doing. They would deny the very young people at risk of bullying the right to send out an invitation to a club under their own name. They would impose on the historic victims of teen bullying a continued isolation.

    It is in this context that Ontario has amended its new anti-bullying law to require that all schools, including Catholic ones, allow gay-straight alliances under that express name, if the students so wish. Constitutional rights do not stop at the Catholic schoolhouse door, especially where the group is young and vulnerable, and needs the protection.

    Thomas Cardinal Collins, the Archbishop of Toronto, calls that amended law an attack on religious freedom. The Archbishop has called on members of all religious faiths to stand up against this perceived attack.

    “If it happens to us, it can happen to you, on this and other issues,” he wrote in a missive posted on a church website. “When religious freedom becomes a second-class right, you also will eventually be affected.”

    Let’s put this in perspective. All that’s being asked is that a vulnerable group of youths be able to meet under the name that makes them vulnerable. The province is trying to live up to the spirit of its anti-bullying law, which in its first version, introduced last fall, would have permitted schools to bar the name gay-straight alliance – a kind of “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy of non-acceptance.

    This is no mere abstract debate. It’s about helping gay teenagers, or the children of gay parents, build protective bridges for themselves in a world from which they have often felt cast out. Leaving out one group of victims defeats the law’s purpose. And Ontario has an overriding interest in protecting all young people.

    Resolving the tension between the Catholic worldview and modern constitutional rights means something has to give on one side or the other. The state has a right, and perhaps even a duty, to insist that public money not be put toward discriminatory uses.
    For more awesomeness that the Catholic church brings, see this article: Catholic board bans rainbows.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

  • #2
    Actually, they are requiring that the Catholic schools teach that homosexuality is good. Odd that Asher leaves that particular fact out.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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    • #3
      sexual activity which is outside marriage cannot be condoned, and is taught by the church to be immoral. This includes masturbation, fornication and adultery, and sexual activity with a person of the same sex.”
      Therefore, the teachings of that church are incompatible with equality as defined by our laws. In a secular society, this conversation should have ended 15 years ago.

      By fighting so hard against its own students’ compassionate impulses to help one another, the Catholic school board is hastening a battle it will inevitably lose.
      Lose what? The ability to teach that sodomy is sinful? This has nothing to do with 'acceptance' and 'equality' and everything to do with attacking the Church for sticking to her principles.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
        Lose what? The ability to teach that sodomy is sinful? This has nothing to do with 'acceptance' and 'equality' and everything to do with attacking the Church for sticking to her principles.
        So, does this mean that the catholic church only is prohibited from speaking out against homosexuality, masturbation and the like only in public school, that are run by the catholic church (and are still allowed to preach against said things outside of public schools [i.e. in catholic masses and/or sunday schools])?

        If this is the latter, so what? You can still order the catholic parents of your school children, to send the kids to mass/sunday school and then double your efforts, to convince the kids in mass/sunday school, that homosexuals/masturbaters/sexual active people outside of marriage are sinners who will burn in hell

        Society wins, as public schools now all teach the same secular view of the world, but you (catholics) still have places, where you can teach children in the catholic way of thinking (just not within public schools anymore)
        Last edited by Proteus_MST; June 2, 2012, 18:03.
        Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
        Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
          Actually, they are requiring that the Catholic schools teach that homosexuality is good. Odd that Asher leaves that particular fact out.
          Your point being..?
          Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
          Then why call him God? - Epicurus

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          • #6
            Anti-bullying laws are an absolutely ridiculous infraction on free speech.
            If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
            ){ :|:& };:

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
              Lose what? The ability to teach that sodomy is sinful? This has nothing to do with 'acceptance' and 'equality' and everything to do with attacking the Church for sticking to her principles.
              Pure BS. This has to do with the simple fact that the RCC are obliged to follow the law when it comes to public schools. If they want to preach bigotry they still are free to do that in their churches.
              With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

              Steven Weinberg

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                Anti-bullying laws are an absolutely ridiculous infraction on free speech.
                Letting students form an organization called a "gay-straight alliance" instead of being forbidden from using the word "gay" is an absolutely ridiculous infraction on free speech?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                  Anti-bullying laws are an absolutely ridiculous infraction on free speech.
                  Maybe, but that's irrelevant in Canada where there is no right to free speech.

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                  • #10
                    Good point.
                    If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                    ){ :|:& };:

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                      Actually, they are requiring that the Catholic schools teach that homosexuality is good. Odd that Asher leaves that particular fact out.
                      If Catholics want to continue bullying homosexuals, they're not allowed to do it on the public dime.

                      They are being required to not condemn homosexual students, not bully them, not assault them, and not ostracize them. Homosexuals are protected by the Canadian constitution from such discrimination, and as those schools are funded with public dollars, they cannot discriminate against homosexuals.

                      I left nothing out. You are just intentionally misrepresenting things.
                      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                        Good point.
                        The whole point to this is the Catholic schools are suppressing free speech.

                        Anti-bullying laws are an absolutely ridiculous infraction on free speech.
                        Spoken like a true American Idiot.

                        I suppose you protest all laws pertaining to death threats, inciting public panic, etc as well?
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                        • #13
                          The important take-away here for Americans is that Canada's constitution is protecting freedom here -- Catholics are trying to trample over the constitutional rights of homosexual Canadians and are being smacked down for it.

                          To enter this thread and try to make a point about a lack of freedom of speech in Canada is a perfect representation of the kind of failures the American education system is ****ting out these days.
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                          • #14
                            Ben Kenobi is a perfect testament to the Canadian education system. They taught a retarded person to read

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                            • #15
                              So, does this mean that the catholic church only is prohibited from speaking out against homosexuality, masturbation and the like only in public school, that are run by ]the catholic church (and are still allowed to preach against said things outside of public schools [i.e. in catholic masses and/or sunday schools])?
                              As has been stated many times, Canada has publicly funded Catholic schools. These schools are run by the Catholic church, and funded by the province. The constitution guarantees both their funding ( at least in Ontario), and their freedom to teach what the Catholic Church teaches (via the School act), and the Charter, which provides for religious freedom.

                              Gay people don't have a leg to stand on protesting that *gasp*, Catholic schools are permitted to teach Catholic teachings, and to abide by the tenets of their faith. Don't like it? Enroll in one of the multitudes of public secular schools. McGimpy can no more force them to have sodomy clubs, than he can force them to have masturbation clubs.

                              If this is the latter, so what?
                              It's contrary to the Constitution of Canada. So what, indeed. That whole thing which is supposed to guarantee freedoms? Trash that, and where's that little section that forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation? Gone.

                              It's funny to see gay people railing against the constitution.

                              Society wins, as public schools now all teach the same secular view of the world
                              Again, unconstitutional in Canada. Can't change it unless you want to change the constitution. Good luck with that.

                              , but you (catholics) still have places, where you can teach children in the catholic way of thinking (just not within public schools anymore)
                              Are you willing to purchase all the schools and compensate the Church for fair market value for all of them? No? then I suppose you'll have to leave the Church be.
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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