Canada declares war on Catholicism

[Ben Kenobi]

The important take-away here for Americans is that Canada's constitution is protecting freedom here -- Catholics are trying to trample over the constitutional rights of homosexual Canadians and are being smacked down for it.

The constitution protects the freedom of Catholic schools to teach Catholic teachings and to forbid school activities contrary to the beliefs of the Catholic church. Gay people can whine about it all they like, but they have the freedom to enroll themselves in a school that does agree with them. Freedom, gosh, it's a wonderful thing.

To enter this thread and try to make a point about a lack of freedom of speech in Canada is a perfect representation of the kind of failures the American education system is ****ting out these days.

How strange is it when the American understands the Canadian constitution better than the Torontonian. Some Canadian!

[Asher]

As has been stated many times, Canada has publicly funded Catholic schools. These schools are run by the Catholic church, and funded by the province. The constitution guarantees both their funding ( at least in Ontario), and their freedom to teach what the Catholic Church teaches (via the School act), and the Charter, which provides for religious freedom.

Gay people don't have a leg to stand on protesting that *gasp*, Catholic schools are permitted to teach Catholic teachings, and to abide by the tenets of their faith. Don't like it? Enroll in one of the multitudes of public secular schools. McGimpy can no more force them to have sodomy clubs, than he can force them to have masturbation clubs.

It's the Church who doesn't have a leg to stand on here. There's increasing public opposition to the anachronistic "separate school system", there's increasing distrust of the RCC, there's increasingly fewer Catholics, and there's increasingly positive attitudes towards homosexuality.

Prevention of discrimination against sexual orientation is enshrined in Canadian constitution. The Church cannot do so with public dollars.

It's contrary to the Constitution of Canada.

As is discriminating against homosexuals.

Push comes to shove, what do you think's going to happen? The vast majority of people in Canada are not Catholic, and the vast majority of people in Canada are opposed to the treatment of homosexuals by Catholics.

This is not a battle the Catholics should be picking. They're going to see to the removal of the whole separate school board.

It's funny to see gay people railing against the constitution.

Errr. Who is railing against the constitution here?

Again, unconstitutional in Canada. Can't change it unless you want to change the constitution. Good luck with that.

Can't discriminate against gays in the constitution either. In any courtroom, the right to freedom of discrimination and harassment will trump the anachronistic public funding of Catholic schools.

Are you willing to purchase all the schools and compensate the Church for fair market value for all of them? No? then I suppose you'll have to leave the Church be.

The Church doesn't own those schools -- the public does.

[Ben Kenobi]

If Catholics want to continue bullying homosexuals, they're not allowed to do it on the public dime.

Unfortunately the province of Ontario is constitutionally obligated to provide funding for Catholic schools, and Catholic schools are permitted to teach their faith. Sucks to be you. Want to change that - good luck overrunning minority rights for people that you don't like. That has a funny way of biting you in the ass.

They are being required to not condemn homosexual students

They are being required to do something contrary to their rights under the Charter. They can be no more required to do something contrary to their rights than the state can deprive them of their natural rights. The state is welcome to try - but that might not work out so well for the state.

If the Constitution doesn't matter anymore - then the Catholic church is permitted to expel students for being gay as the Charter no longer applies.

Homosexuals are protected by the Canadian constitution

As are Catholic schools protected by the same Constitution, which permits them to be funded by the public. You can't have your cake and eat it too asher - Affirming the constitution means affirming all of it. That includes funding for Catholic schools, and freedom of expression.

[Asher]

The constitution protects the freedom of Catholic schools to teach Catholic teachings and to forbid school activities contrary to the beliefs of the Catholic church. Gay people can whine about it all they like, but they have the freedom to enroll themselves in a school that does agree with them. Freedom, gosh, it's a wonderful thing.

Only saying this one more time.

Catholic schools cannot discriminate against homosexuals. Regardless of what anachronistic treaties from centuries ago may state.

By fighting this, Catholics have punched a ticket on the train to unification of the systems and the elimination of public funding. Make no mistake - it's entirely possible, and FAR more likely than Canada deciding it's okay for gay students to be bullied if their parents chose to send them to a Catholic district.

[Asher]

Unfortunately the province of Ontario is constitutionally obligated to provide funding for Catholic schools, and Catholic schools are permitted to teach their faith. Sucks to be you.

You're some kind of retarded.

The province of Ontario is passing a law changing that, and you pretend like they won't. You think if the Church takes it to court and says "but a treaty from centuries ago said we can harass and bully gays all we want!", the Canadian court system is going to shrug and acquiesce?

There's no way the church can win here.

FWIW, there are already provinces which have eliminated Catholic school districts. It's entirely possible, and the more the views of the Catholic bigots diverges with a progressive Canadian society, the more likely the Church makes it that other provinces follow Manitoba's lead. That was challenged by the church as well, with accusations flying about how it was unconstitutional. The courts dismissed the arguments. It even went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Do you know how long ago that was?

Over 110 years ago.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's the Church who doesn't have a leg to stand on here.

Actually, yes, they do. Their right to do just this is protected by the Charter, and by the constitution which provides public funding for the Catholic schools (at least in Ontario).

There's increasing public opposition to the anachronistic "separate school system", there's increasing distrust of the RCC, there's increasingly fewer Catholics, and there's increasingly positive attitudes towards homosexuality.

Yeah, and given the fact that separate schools were established to protect a Catholic minority - the constitutional protections were enacted for a reason. I thought you believed that minority rights cannot be trampled by the majority. It's irrelevant how many people believe this should be removed - they have to amend the constitution in order to change it.

Good luck with that, btw.

Even if you manage to remove public funding, the Church is either going to get compensated for the buildings that they built, or they are going to get to keep the buildings, but the province will no longer fund them.

Prevention of discrimination against sexual orientation is enshrined in Canadian constitution. The Church cannot do so with public dollars.

They absolutely can. The Charter protects religious freedom, and the constitution, at least in Ontario, provides for the establishment and funding for the separate schools. Gay people can simply attend a school that agrees with them.

It's contrary to the Constitution of Canada. As is discriminating against homosexuals.

Not so. The Catholic church is upholding their religious freedom to teach what the Church believes. This includes the part that says that sodomy is sinful.

Push comes to shove, what do you think's going to happen? The vast majority of people in Canada are not Catholic, and the vast majority of people in Canada are opposed to the treatment of homosexuals by Catholics.

Really? Good luck with that. There's a reason you've never put anything for a vote.

What will happen is that you'll try to get a court decision put against the Catholic church. It will go to the SCOC, and the Supremes will uphold the separate schools, and that will be that. Taking rights away from people that you don't like isn't what the gay movement was supposed to be about Asher. You told me we would be left alone. I called you a bull****ter. Seems I was right that the gay movement wants to crush any and all opposition.

It's not about expanding rights, it's about taking them away from people that you don't like.

I hope the gay rights movement continues to push for taking rights away from unpopular minorities.

This is not a battle the Catholics should be picking. They're going to see to the removal of the whole separate school board.

You don't seem to understand that this is a battle that has been fought for close to 200 years in Ontario. You think it's only just now that Ontario has expressed prejudice towards Catholics? It's only rather recently that Catholics have superceded Protestants in Ontario, and we can't have that, can we? Good luck with fighting the Church - you'll lose every time.

Can't discriminate against gays in the constitution either.

Religious freedom permits separate schools to ban events held on school grounds contrary to what the Church teaches. Sodomy clubs are no more permitted than masturbation clubs. If they did permit masturbation clubs and banned sodomy clubs, you'd have a case.

Gay people aren't being discriminated against. Sodomy and events that promote sodomy are. A gay person is permitted to attend and participate in clubs to his liking, as would any straight person. The policy treats straight people the same as gay people.

What the policy does not say - and this is the part that has you mad - is that the Church can condemn sodomy without condemning those who choose to practice it. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The Church doesn't own those schools -- the public does.

Good luck with that. Like I said, you haven't the least inkling what you are fighting against here. You're fighting to take rights away now.

[Asher]

You're so stupid you don't even know when you're being ****ed, Ben.

Right now secular Canada is taking you and other hardcore Catholics, bending you over, and ripping you a new one and you're completely ignorant of what's going on around you.

I'm going to sum up what you don't understand. Canada has laws against hate speech, Canada loathes intolerance, and Canada is increasingly non-religious. The sad song and dance that the Catholics can no longer bully gay students is not going to win you any sympathy with the courts, nor with the public.

Other religions are bitter that the Catholics get separate treatment and offer no assistance, and secular Canada wants to do away with the separate schools as it is.

The Catholic Church has woken a beast, all over an anti-bullying act which lets students offer support groups to bullied students. What a way to make a stand, Catholics.

[Asher]

BTW, Ben - can you cite the part of the Constitution Act of 1867 which actually states that Catholic schools in Ontario are free to teach every aspect of their religion, including those which trample more fundamental rights?

Because from what I see, it does not exist: http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/C...h/ca_1867.html

Basically it says "yeah, Education is not our thing, it's a Provincial thing. But to make Quebec happy, here's some bull****:"

93. In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:--

(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:

(2) All the Powers, Privileges and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:

(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:

(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.(50)

93A. Paragraphs (1) to (4) of section 93 do not apply to Quebec. (50.1)

[Ben Kenobi]

You're some kind of retarded.

Then you should have no problem successfully arguing against me.

The province of Ontario is passing a law changing that, and you pretend like they won't.

The law will either, 1, not pass, 2, go to the supremes after appeals are filed, and get struck down. You really think that the SCOC is going to approve taking rights away from people?

You think if the Church takes it to court and says "but a treaty from centuries ago said we can harass and bully gays all we want!", the Canadian court system is going to shrug and acquiesce?

You really think that the SCOC is going to eliminate separate schools? That's got as much a chance as succeeding as removing official bilingualism. IE, not going to happen.

There's no way the church can win here.

Excellent murray.

FWIW, there are already provinces which have eliminated Catholic school districts.

Such as?

It's entirely possible, and the more the views of the Catholic bigots diverges with a progressive Canadian society, the more likely the Church makes it that other provinces follow Manitoba's lead. That was challenged by the church as well, with accusations flying about how it was unconstitutional. The courts dismissed the arguments. It even went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Well, sure. Back in 1890, in the height of the Riel Rebellion. Things are different now.

Laurier permitted Catholicism to be taught in Manitoba public schools, and that's how it's been ever since. Since then, Catholic school boards have been established in Alberta, Saskatchewan and in BC (1970).

Over 110 years ago.

Absolutely, I'm aware of the Manitoba Schools Act. It's interesting legislation that accomplished the goal of establishing a protestant majority west of Quebec. However, things change, over the course of 110 years, and they were re-established later on. Even to the point where provinces that were never under it's regulations (BC), have established Catholic boards like the other provinces.

Now with Ontario having more Catholics than Protestants, it's going to be an interesting next while.

[Asher]

Then you should have no problem successfully arguing against me.

I just did.

The law will either, 1, not pass, 2, go to the supremes after appeals are filed, and get struck down. You really think that the SCOC is going to approve taking rights away from people?

Just as the SCOC took away the rights for Catholics to assault their wives, they will take away their "rights" to bully gays. Either way something has to give. The constitutional right of gays to be free of harassment or discrimination, or the politically convenient anachronistic right for the "Catholic minority" to have a separate school district. Considering they're not trying to take the district away, there's no wording in the constitution which promises that Catholics can harass and bully people as per their beliefs.

There are a lot of parallels here to same sex marriage cases, which is an example where all courts agreed with the homosexuals vs the church.

The odds of the Supreme Court of Canada ruling in favour of protecting a vulnerable demographic protected by the constitution instead of an organization famous for child rape and cover-ups...are pretty high.

[Ben Kenobi]

Right now secular Canada is taking you and other hardcore Catholics, bending you over, and ripping you a new one and you're completely ignorant of what's going on around you.

No, I'm quite well aware of that. Why do you think I've always said that the gay rights movement isn't about giving people rights, it's about taking them away from people. I'm glad to see you proving me right with every post. I

I'm going to sum up what you don't understand. Canada has laws against hate speech,

Canada also has laws protecting religious freedom. Whatcott's protests have been upheld, and the Tribunals have been found to have overstepped their mandate. Laws, are laws, Asher. What we are seeing is that the proponderance of Laws are establishing that Christianity isn't hate speech and expressing Christian teachings doesn't qualify as hate. Thanks to overreach by homosexual activists, we now have laws with precedents established. Had gay people not brought this up in the first place, this would not have happened. But we all know why they brought it up. Again - it's not about giving rights to people, it's about taking them away from people.

Canada loathes intolerance

Nonsense. Canada thrives on intolerance. Canada bends over to protect intolerance, subsidizes intolerance and supports wholeheartedly anyone who preaches intolerance. In Canada the tail wags the dog.

and Canada is increasingly non-religious.

And so? You're saying that because people hate religion that we should celebrate hating religion? Isn't that what I said about Canada loving intolerance?

The sad song and dance that the Catholics can no longer bully gay students is not going to win you any sympathy with the courts, nor with the public.

So what you are saying is if a parent sends their child to a Catholic school - that they have a right to complain when the school teaches Catholic teachings? That raises the question - why are you sending your child to a Catholic school in the first place? Did they not know it was a Catholic school? Or did they know, and they are simply attacking the Church for her beliefs?

See, am I supposed to close my eyes and believe that this school was chosen at random? Bull****. Same as always, go to a person that you don't like, slip and fall, and sue them for as much as you can possible get out of them.

There are plenty of schools that will teach what you want to get out of them. Why are they inadequate for educating the people?

Other religions are bitter that the Catholics get separate treatment

How's it like in India? Are all religions treated the same there? How about China? How about Pakistan? The Sikhs are complaining about living in a country that allows them to buy land?

If they don't like living in Canada - they can leave.

and offer no assistance, and secular Canada wants to do away with the separate schools as it is.

Same thing to secularists. You want to live under state secularism - go live in China.

[Ben Kenobi]

Just as the SCOC took away the rights for Catholics to assault their wives, they will take away their "rights" to bully gays.

They can no more take away their right to say that sodomy is sinful, then they can command them to proclaim that Mohammed is a prophet. Egypt is trying that, doesn't seem to be working very well for Egypt. Been trying that there for 1400 years.

See, that's the thing about religious freedom - oppressing people for their religious beliefs just doesn't work.

Either way something has to give.

Not so. The SCOC can say that gay people have the right to have their child educated in a secular public school - a right that they already possess, and Catholic have the same right to have their children educated in a Catholic public school. No discrimination. You want to take other people's rights away - good luck with that.

The constitutional right of gays to be free of harassment or discrimination

Same section applies to Catholics too.

politically convenient anachronistic right for the "Catholic minority" to have a separate school district.

It's called the constitution. The same thing that protects 'sexual orientation', also protects Catholics.

Considering they're not trying to take the district away

That's exactly what you're trying to do - take rights away from people that you don't like.

, there's no wording in the constitution which promises that Catholics can harass and bully people as per their beliefs.

Catholic schools are not required to host the Vagina Monologues. Catholic schools denying the request to hold the Vagina Monologues on campus, does not amount to discrimination - no more so than Catholics being permitted to have freedom of religion.

The odds of the Supreme Court of Canada ruling in favour of protecting a vulnerable demographic protected by the constitution instead of an organization famous for child rape and cover-ups...are pretty high.

See, the same sword cuts both ways. You're perfectly ok with intolerance and hatred and bigotry towards Catholics. You're a poster child for the gay rights movement.

[Asher]

You are delusional and a terrible human being. It takes a special kind of ******* to characterize anti-bullying efforts as "taking away people's rights". Allowing gays to marry doesn't take away your rights. Protecting gays from bullying and harassment doesn't take away your rights. Allowing students to form a Gay-Straight Alliance doesn't take away your rights. You are trampling on everyone else's rights in the name of your ****ed up make-believe faith while crying that anyone stopping you is taking away your religious freedom. You and your ilk are exactly why Christianity is starting to become a bad word. You besmirch the name of genuinely good Christians.

Canada is too good for you. Enjoy Texas. They deserve you.

[giblets]

At least Texas isn't dumb enough to give public funding to Catholic schools.

[Asher]

Texas schools may as well be religious schools.

The reason why many provinces have Catholic schools has been explained in other threads. It entirely comes down to placating Quebec while unifying Canada, it had **** all to do with religious freedom. In fact, the Catholic systems are unconstitutional as they violate the terms of discrimination based on religion. Some *******s actually knew that and added a clause to the constitution admitting as such, but saying "but you can't use the religious equality clause to strike this down!"

So while it is technically in the constitution, it's there despite the constitution and the purposes for its existence no longer really exist. It's in danger of being written out. All we need is a good excuse -- one that Ben and his ilk are driven to give us.