Canada declares war on Catholicism

[Asher]

The Shafia killings were reported as a tragic accident, it was only prosecuted as a honor killing when the police actually managed to find the second vehicle involved in the accident, and realized that it was registered to the father. The police were able to ascertain that it was a honor killing from that evidence.

It was immediately clear it was not an accident.

[Ben Kenobi]

It was immediately clear it was not an accident.

Maybe to you it was, but the police didn't think so.

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/timeline+Kingston+canal+deaths/1824608/story.html

Wasn't until the 5th that the police received a tip that it was a honor killing.

[molly bloom]

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Hon...638/story.html

There've been 13 such cases in the country since 2002, that were successsfully prosecuted, many, many more that were not.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/26...n-canada-study

Interesting. First you say that honour killings are 'permitted' in Canada, and that people get away with them 'scot free'. And yet the first case mentioned in that Vancouver Sun report states:

On June 16, the father and brother of a slain Mississauga, Ont., teen were sentenced to life in prison after pleading guilty to the December 2007 murder of Aqsa Parvez, a 16-year-old girl of Pakistani descent who wanted to wear western clothes and get a part-time job like her Canadian peers.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is a life sentence in prison in Canada usually seen as the state giving permission for something to be carried out or the state punishing the perpetrators of an illegal act ?

From the other newspaper:

The case prompted a debate about the possibility of creating a separate Criminal Code category for honour killings.

Law professor Marie-Pierre Robert, who authored the study, said data indicates such a move isn't needed because honour killers are always prosecuted to the maximum under Canadian law.

"Often it's first-degree murder, which means life in prison in the great majority of cases," she said. "Even in the other cases, there are very severe sentences."

Are you insensible to your inability to comprehend English ?


Or do you just enjoy looking like a mendacious fool ?

[Asher]

Maybe to you it was, but the police didn't think so.

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/timeline+Kingston+canal+deaths/1824608/story.html

Wasn't until the 5th that the police received a tip that it was a honor killing.

You're a ****ing liar, Ben.

Within a day they began a murder investigation because the husband reported an accident with his Lexus the same morning, which was highly suspicious considering the markings on the car indicated it may've been pushed in.

[rah]

The Shafia killings were reported as a tragic accident, it was only prosecuted as a honor killing when the police actually managed to find the second vehicle involved in the accident, and realized that it was registered to the father. The police were able to ascertain that it was a honor killing from that evidence.

Had the father managed to dispose of the automobile, he would be a free man today, and we'd have seen a blurb in the paper about a tragic accident where a vehicle ended up in the canal. That would be it.

Which side are you arguing? It seems that once they figured out it was an honor killing they prosecuted him. NOT that they don't prosecute it which was your original statement. You're even more of dolt than normal.

[Ben Kenobi]

Which side are you arguing? It seems that once they figured out it was an honor killing they prosecuted him. NOT that they don't prosecute it which was your original statement. You're even more of dolt than normal.

Well, let's see.

First you said that "it couldn't be a honor killing because serious muslims wouldn't let their girl children drive. Then I successfully showed how 'it could be done'.

Did you acknowledge that you were wrong? Odd that.

I'm arguing that the police did not treat the incident as anything more than an accidental death, until they recieved more information corroborating a honor killing. If said information was not found, the police wouldn't have tried the case as a honor killing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Within a day they began a murder investigation because the husband reported an accident with his Lexus the same morning, which was highly suspicious considering the markings on the car indicated it may've been pushed in.

So what would have happened if the father hadn't reported the accident with his Lexus?

[Ben Kenobi]

Or do you just enjoy looking like a mendacious fool ?

I'm the fool for asserting that honor killings are more common than 12 over 10 years in Canada and that many cases go unreported?

Hey, at least this is outing all the folks who swear that Islam can do no wrong.

[rah]

Well, let's see.

First you said that "it couldn't be a honor killing because serious muslims wouldn't let their girl children drive. Then I successfully showed how 'it could be done'.

Did you acknowledge that you were wrong? Odd that.

I'm arguing that the police did not treat the incident as anything more than an accidental death, until they recieved more information corroborating a honor killing. If said information was not found, the police wouldn't have tried the case as a honor killing.

Actually I said that the daughter wouldn't be allowed to drive the car. You stated that the someone else could be driving. Yes, that is different but doesn't negate my comment.
But the rest still makes no sense to your original argument that they don't prosecute honor killings. Or have you changed your stance on that and moved on to something else.

[molly bloom]

One Catholics don't do that.

Oh Benny, you're so naive.

In Italy, several episodes in recent years suggest that violence against women is still tolerated both by some Italian authorities and parts of society when the victim is perceived as having dishonored or upset her murderer.

Last year local church authorities defended a man in Macerata, a small town in central Italy, who had attempted to kill his wife because she asked for a divorce. Francesca Carletti-Baleani wanted to leave her husband because he had cheated on her. Bruno Carletti responded by beating her until she was unconscious, wrapping her body in a plastic bag and dumping it into a trash bin on the outskirts of town.

Carletti-Baleani miraculously survived, and her husband confessed to attempting to kill her. "It was an act of love," wrote Father Igino Ciabattoni, a leader of the White Cross Catholic organization. The priest also accused the victim of "torturing her husband" because she refused to take him back.

In 2007, in the Sicilian town of Palermo, Renato Di Felice served only two days in prison, despite being found guilty of purposely killing his wife, Maria Concetta-Pitas, in 2003: the couple's children had testified that their mother had been disrespectful toward her husband, moving the judge to a mild sentence.

"All statistics suggest intimate partner violence is on the rise," says Cinzia Tani. "Often the victims are working women, whose husbands or boyfriends cannot tolerate their economic independence," she argues. "Paradoxically, emancipation has increased this kind of violence against women."

Tani also argues that society is often indulgent to those men killing their spouses or girlfriends in cases of infidelity. "Those men are rarely depicted as murderers by the media, and courts are likely to treat them more leniently," she says.

"The stereotype is still dominant: if a woman cheats on her man and gets killed, she must have brought it upon herself," Tani suggests. "Interestingly enough, when it's a woman who becomes violent out of passion, it is not so easily tolerated."

Passion and honor-related crimes against women seem so engrained in Italian society that in 2006 a German court granted extenuating circumstances on the basis of "ethnic and cultural background" to a Sardinia-born man who had his girlfriend gang-raped because he feared she might have cheated on him.

"All Italians, and those living in Sardinia particularly, felt insulted and outraged by this German sentence," notes Sabahi. "Yet when similar crimes take place among the Arab immigrants, Italian authorities tend to blame it on Islam, without caring about offending the Muslim community."

http://www.thenation.com/article/honor-killing-any-other-name#

They take place amongst Christian communities in the Middle East too.

their culture should take precedence. This is part of why they want to impose Sharia law.

Culture and religion are two different things- some things that take place in mainly Muslim countries aren't allowed under Sharia law or found in the Koran, but do exist as part of the culture of those societies. Like heterosexual anal sex used as an alternative to contraception in some developing Roman Catholic societies.

The same folks who argue that Cultural relativism is the way to go.

So in other words: "YOU'RE MAKING IT UP!"


Super....

[molly bloom]

And your point? Are you saying that Canada should recognise Mandarin and Cantonese as official languages?

I've no idea where you get that absurd notion from. Nothing I've said, certainly. Interesting though that 'your' Canadian cultures are all so tighty whitey and European, if not just from the British Isles. You might think the Metis and non-Europeans did nothing to shape Canada's culture.

Beyond Richler, is he the only Jewish author of significance in Canada? That speaks volumes.

I was hardly listing all of Canada's famous Jews, cultural or otherwise.

If he weren't Jewish, nobody would trot him out as an essential component of Canadian culture.

Truly you're ****ting me about Richler. He's well-known internationally as a satirist and humorist and a novelist- not just because he's Jewish or Canadian, but because of what he writes. His articles on Quebec's language laws were very funny- like a latter day Jonathan Swift when it came to pointing out the absurdities involved.

And yes there are norms in Canada.

White European norms it looks like from what you're saying. Ever heard of the Haida artist Bill Reid, for instance ?

[molly bloom]

I'm the fool for asserting that honor killings are more common than 12 over 10 years in Canada and that many cases go unreported?

No, you're a lying fool because you overstate and misrepresent your case. You stated that honour killings were 'permitted' and that people were able to carry them out with impunity- and yet both the newspapers YOU cited revealed that the perpetrators in question when caught, were prosecuted.

Hey, at least this is outing all the folks who swear that Islam can do no wrong.

If that's meant to be a reference to me, it's stupid and incorrect. I'm still an atheist, honour killings are not specifically a Muslim crime or confined to Islam, nor are they sanctioned by Islam. I don't have any particular liking or preference for Islam over any other kind of organized superstition either.

[molly bloom]

So you're suggesting that Honor killers are as common as pedophile priests?

Perhaps Canada now pursues child abuse cases amongst Roman Catholic clergy more vigorously than it once did :

9 Dec. 1975 The constabulary opens an investigation into abuse at Mount Cashel Boys’ Home. Detective Robert Hillier heads the investigation.

9-16 Dec. 1975 Hillier interviews 24 Mount Cashel residents and Shane Earle’s mother, Carol. Almost all boys report that they have witnessed or experienced physical or sexual abuse at the orphanage, committed by some of the Christian Brothers working there.

17 Dec. 1975 Hillier interviews Brothers Alan Ralph and Edward English; both confess to child molestation.

18 Dec. 1975 Chief of Police John Lawlor and Assistant Chief John Norman order Hillier to end his investigation and file a report. Hillier submits a report that day. About an hour later, Norman orders him to write a new one and delete any reference to sexual abuse. Hillier refuses, but complies when Norman says the order comes from Lawlor. Hillier destroys the first report and submits a second; it implicates five Christian Brothers working at the orphanage of abuse.

Late Dec. 1975 The Christian Brothers send Ralph and English out of the province for treatment. Other brothers implicated in Hiller’s report are removed from the orphanage in the coming months. No charges are laid as a result of Hillier’s investigation.

Jan. 1976 A mother of three boys who lived in Mount Cashel until late 1975 tells the Evening Telegram about abuse at the orphanage. The news department investigates, but the publisher prevents the story from going to press.

3 Mar. 1976 Lawlor orders Hillier to file a second report at the request of the justice department; no reason is provided. Lawlor again orders Hillier to omit references to sexual assault. Hillier submits the report later that day. No charges are laid.

26 Jan. 1977 Deputy Minister of Justice Vincent McCarthy returns the 1975 and 1976 reports to new Chief of Police John Browne with a note stating: “in view of the action taken by the Christian Brothers further police action is unwarranted in this matter” (Royal Commission, Vol. I 213).

10 Apr. 1979 Constabulary Detective Sergeant Arthur Pike appears before a closed provincial inquiry into a suspicious fire in St. John’s. He alleges that police have concealed reports of criminal activity in the past and describes the Mount Cashel investigation as an example.

http://www.heritage.nf.ca/law/wells_gov_mt_cashel_timeline.html

One of the most infamous cases- made into quite a good film with Henry Czerny- that well-known Canadian actor. Or is he- with a surname like that ? Sounds suspiciously Eastern European....

[Asher]

I'm arguing that the police did not treat the incident as anything more than an accidental death, until they recieved more information corroborating a honor killing. If said information was not found, the police wouldn't have tried the case as a honor killing.

You remain a ****ing liar.

It was treated as an accidental death as most staged accidents start. Almost immediately it was deemed suspicious due to the markings on the car indicating it was pushed, and a simultaneous accident report filed by the father the same day. Also the fact that there were no attempts to escape made, from the evidence. They were dead before they went in the water.

There's no ****ing way he'd get away with that kind of sloppy mass murder, "tip" or not.

[rah]

Is it honorable to make an honor killing appear to be an accident? I mean really, if you wanted to reclaim your honor by killing them wouldn't this require that you make it know that you did the killing and what the reason was.