Hello everybody

[rah]

All you're doing, Ben, is rationalizing why Women can be treated like second class citizens.
And quoting scripture to justify it.
I noticed that nowhere did you quote where it specifically said that women should be excluded from the priesthood.
And quoting one person (Ste. Therese) doesn't prove anything. It just shows her 'Opinion'. Especially since she had no power to direct RCC policy. Being a women and all that.

The Church isn't a corporation, rah. Does a priest have 'more value', than the guy who shows up every week, and works 60 hours a week, and leaves?

When the priest has more prestige, is given more responsibilities, has better housing, and has servants, I would say the RCC "VALUES" them more. And yes, the RCC is a business in the modern world. Don't confuse the issue using duties or definitions of contributions.

Women can't be priests. It's that simple. They are discriminated because of their sex. That's the definition of sex discrimination. Just say that you don't care that it's sex discrimination because the church tells you that it's ok.

[Lorizael]

Let's see how much you really believe in equality of the sexes, BK.

You live in a small, poor community of Catholics parishioners whose really super rad and awesome priest guy just died. Being as how this is a small, poor community, there is no chain of command in place, and thus no one to replace poor dead priest guy. Now, in this small, poor community, it just so happens that all the men are stupid, boring, atheists, or even possibly gay. In short, none of them would make good priests. But there is one particular woman, however, who is charismatic, spiritual, exceedingly well read in the Bible, smart, and not even remotely gay. Objectively, she would make a better priest than any of the available men. Should the parish select one of the men to be their priest, or the woman?

[Nikolai]

In that scenario, none of the men would be selectable, or even part of the parish. Bad example Lori.

[Ben Kenobi]

Do more people engage in homosexual activity or do more people lie?

Answer the questions, please.

Is there serious disagreement that lying, cheating, mistreating the poor is wrong?

Is there serious disagreement that homosexuality is wrong?

If the answer is no/yes, then you've also answered your own question. When people argue that sin is not sin - that's the main issue here.

[MRT144]

There's a difference between equality of form and equality of function. Women don't have to do exactly the same thing as men to be equal, and nor should they. Same with the men.

There are plenty of ways for women to get involved in church, and frankly, it's not the women who aren't showing up. I can count the number of young men whom I work with on one hand, one. And that's me.

Plenty of women...but no men. Why is that rah?

Women seek out spirituality and religion more than men in western society. In spite of Catholics being women hating child rapists.

[Ben Kenobi]

You live in a small, poor community of Catholics parishioners whose really super rad and awesome priest guy just died. Being as how this is a small, poor community, there is no chain of command in place, and thus no one to replace poor dead priest guy. Now, in this small, poor community, it just so happens that all the men are stupid, boring, atheists, or even possibly gay. In short, none of them would make good priests. But there is one particular woman, however, who is charismatic, spiritual, exceedingly well read in the Bible, smart, and not even remotely gay. Objectively, she would make a better priest than any of the available men. Should the parish select one of the men to be their priest, or the woman?

You'd be surprised - I used to attend a parish that made the exact same argument. The priest has a very large, and very rural parish. That's what it's like in Northern BC.

Priests are scarce, and yes, some parishes will go years without having a priest, and so two (or sometimes more) parishes would share a priest, who would split time between the parishes.

Now, this priest came to the same conclusion as you did, that having his mistress (who lived with him openly), would make an *excellent* person to run the show when he was away.

My question for you, how long do you think the irregularity persisted, when someone sent the bishop a copy of his pamphlet arguing in favor of the irregularity? How long was it until said priest was placed directly under the bishop and his diocese assigned to a fresh new spanking Nigerian priest?

Oh, and for a hypothetical, who do you think sent the pamphlet?

[rah]

So the men wouldn't be acceptable because they were stupid, boring, atheists an possible gay. And I'm sure if you look in almost any Catholic congregation, you'll find quite a few men that have these characteristics.
The woman wouldn't be acceptable because she was a women.

Doesn't seem sexist to me

[Ben Kenobi]

Women seek out spirituality and religion more than men in western society. In spite of Catholics being women hating child rapists.

And having a female priest is going to arrest, or hasten the decline of church attendence among men?

[Lorizael]

I'm having trouble understanding how that's an answer to my question, BK.

[MRT144]

And having a female priest is going to arrest, or hasten the decline of church attendence among men?

If female priests are less likely to rape children then yes.

[rah]

And having a female priest is going to arrest, or hasten the decline of church attendence among men?

Would you stop attending church?

[Ben Kenobi]

All you're doing, Ben, is rationalizing why Women can be treated like second class citizens.
And quoting scripture to justify it.

I'm actually arguing that the heirarchy works the other way, that those in charge have to be below the ones they serve, and that this is the model of leadership that Christ himself argues for - going so far to argue that men should give their lives for their flock.

Now, let me ask you something, rah. Does it work that way in the corporate world? Would the CEO die to preserve the life of his employees?

I noticed that nowhere did you quote where it specifically said that women should be excluded from the priesthood.

Oh, so you skipped over the reference to Ephesians 5, where it says that a husband and wife are like the church and the parish? It's all right there rah. Why does the church ask that the husband - who is the husband of the wife, die for his bride, just like Christ did for his church? Why doesn't scripture say that the church should die for Christ, and the wife die for her husband?

And why are priests - required to act in 'personae Christae', in the person of Christ, when they minister to the flock?

Answer these questions, and you'll have your own answer.

And quoting one person (Ste. Therese) doesn't prove anything. It just shows her 'Opinion'.

As opposed to your entirely anecdotal evidence from 'nuns that you know'? Hey, at least I can prove that she actually said it.

I can quote plenty of other nuns who say the same thing - that their service is no lesser than the priests, simply different, because their callings are not the same, and there are many ways to serve God.

Or maybe, since I'm racist too, I can quote the Rev. Dr. King -

If you are called to be a street sweeper, sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. Sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, 'Here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.'

I don't have a divinity degree like the good doctor, but he's right in line with what Christ teaches, and he and Christ are both in opposition to your understanding.

There is no, 'higher or lower', no 'slave or free'. You knew this once, rah. There is no 'serving God more', there is no 'boasting'. There is just submission to Him. That is all.

Just say that you don't care that it's sex discrimination because the church tells you that it's ok.

Why would I lie to you to spare your feelings, rah? I'm teaching you straight from the Gospel - you should recognise it. There is a difference between 'equality' and 'sameness', one can be equal and different at the same time.

[Elok]

Women seek out spirituality and religion more than men in western society. In spite of Catholics being women hating child rapists.

On a side-note, I'm told that trend is actually reversed in my church; we attract men more than women. Supposedly it has something to do with Western Christianity focusing more on "feminine" things (empathy, effusive emotions, a stronger emphasis on Christ's meekness and gentleness). Meanwhile we've got all the old Byzantine battle-hymns and a focus on rigorous asceticism, which ostensibly holds more appeal for men. But I have no meaningful personal experience with other churches--this is all just what I hear from converts.

[MikeH]

I should run a poll - how many of you believe that men and women are fundamentally the same?

Yes, of course they are. (differences in reproductive biology aside)
Who doesn't believe that?

[Ben Kenobi]

Would you stop attending church?

That's a good question. It's the question that Luther faced, and his answer was to split off and leave. The answer of the saints, was always the same - to stick with what the Church had always taught and fight for it, as long and as hard as need be. Look at St. Athanasius - the entire church rebelled against the teaching that Christ was God and man - and he eventually won.

I have faith that yes, there will be a schism between those who believe, like you do, that they need to cast their lot with the dying churches and the dying west, and between the folks that see that the Church was right all along. I don't believe that you or your generation will go quietly when we finally get a pope that is one of you, and that when we do - you'll wait until then. Benedict was born in 1927, it's possible that the next pope will be from 1945 or later, and I expect there to be hue and outcry from you and your generation to change things before it's too late.

But the story never ends there - rah. Change just doesn't stop where you want it to.