Hello everybody

[Jon Miller]

I actually differ with Nikolia here.

I am OK with my organization because I see that 'priest' = male spiritual leader, and female spiritual leaders are still welcome. Saying that female spiritual leaders are not welcome I would disagree strongly with and point to the named female leaders of the church as well as Deborah/etc in the old testament.

JM
(Also the equality issue, although I don't think 'equality' is a strong argument (it is just a better argument than a bad argument).)

[Nikolai]

I actually differ with Nikolia here.

I am OK with my organization because I see that 'priest' = male spiritual leader, and female spiritual leaders are still welcome. Saying that female spiritual leaders are not welcome I would disagree strongly with and point to the named female leaders of the church as well as Deborah/etc in the old testament.

JM
(Also the equality issue, although I don't think 'equality' is a strong argument (it is just a better argument than a bad argument).)

And it is okay to differ on this. It is not a question of salvation, but rather conviction of what is the right understand of the matter in light of Scripture. And as I said, women can preach.

[rah]

Not close. Scripture is binding. And besides, those who agree(which is a lot of women I assure you) accepts it. Those who don't are free to find a congregation that is not that conservative. They exist. A lot of them.

Scripture can be interpreted differently as others have pointed out.
I'm sure that there were a lot of blacks that accepted slavery so I don't think that argument is a valid one.

But yes, I agree, that those that don't accept it should find a group that does.

But many just leave.

And despite any rationalization, it's still sexist. That can't be denied, only justified.

[Nikolai]

Scripture can be interpreted differently as others have pointed out.
I'm sure that there were a lot of blacks that accepted slavery so I don't think that argument is a valid one.

But yes, I agree, that those that don't accept it should find a group that does.

But many just leave.

And despite any rationalization, it's still sexist. That can't be denied, only justified.

As *I* also pointed out from the beginning. The blacks stuff is too stupid to comment on further.

That many leaves is sad, but in the end this boils down to faith, interpretation and being true to your conscience and conviction. Actually, to be true to God. You might not understand it, and I don't really except you to. Faith is something someone on the outside can not completely grasp. I've tried to explain though. If that makes me sexist in your eyes...well. Your loss.

[Jon Miller]

Actually I disagree with that too.

The war on homosexuality that many Christians engage in has driven many from God. Yes, people should come to God no matter what evil is done in His name, but that doesn't mean that people can't be discouraged and lose their way due to our (Christians) actions. This is completely terrible. And said to be terrible in the Bible.

I think that Christians should be able to feel that homosexual activity is sinful and speak their mind. But the attacks/etc have got to stop, and if they hold that interpretation than they should devote just as much time and strength to lying, cheating, mistreating the poor/sick/prisoner, and so on. And even fairly good Christian groups fail on this latter point.

JM
(Note that this is obviously based on my non-predestined understanding. If Universalism is correct or predestination, than I would be wrong.)

[Ben Kenobi]

This is happening to Catholics in America?

Why do you think Elizabeth I was excommunicated?

[Nikolai]

Actually I disagree with that too.

The war on homosexuality that many Christians engage in has driven many from God. Yes, people should come to God no matter what evil is done in His name, but that doesn't mean that people can't be discouraged and lose their way due to our (Christians) actions. This is completely terrible. And said to be terrible in the Bible.

I think that Christians should be able to feel that homosexual activity is sinful and speak their mind. But the attacks/etc have got to stop, and if they hold that interpretation than they should devote just as much time and strength to lying, cheating, mistreating the poor/sick/prisoner, and so on. And even fairly good Christian groups fail on this latter point.

JM
(Note that this is obviously based on my non-predestined understanding. If Universalism is correct or predestination, than I would be wrong.)

I don't disagree? I am a conservative on homosexuality, and believe the Bible's word on it being sin. But I want gays to have protection in society and equal right and opportunities(although I want their civil unions and traditional marriage to be regulated by two separate laws, to avoid the situation we have in Norway now). I condemn all violence against them. They should be treated with respect, but they (and their supporters) need to respect religious people's rights to call their lifestyle sin. Just as I need to respect that they oppose my views. Equal rights, equal responsibilities. So it sounds like we agree.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's like saying in the old days that since there were more women secretaries in a company than male bosses that women were treated equally.

The Church isn't a corporation, rah. Does a priest have 'more value', than the guy who shows up every week, and works 60 hours a week, and leaves?

Or the baptised Catholic who leaves the flock and stays away for 20 years?

Christ is really, really clear on this. Christ says:

John 10:11-12

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep

Christ - tells Peter that he is to 'feed his sheep', and be the good shepherd to them. That means laying your life for your parishioners - their lives are just as valuable as your own.

Not only that:

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also

Christ died - for all of us - not just the current body of believers - he laid his life down for his flock - the Pastor has a duty not only to his parishioners - but to everyone.

Can women be priests? Can women participate at the upper levels? How is that equality?

Matthew 23:12

For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

It works backwards - those in a position of leadership in the church are the servants! They are less than the parish and the parishioners - they serve the parish, rather than the parish serving them.

And the fact that you support it, demonstrates what a sexist you are.

Christ is very clear of his standards for the priests, and for the leadership - that they would be willing to give their lives for the church - the same thing that Ephesians 5 demands of the husband to his bride. The husband is to give his life for his wife, and the wife is to honor and obey her husband. Right there - Ephesians 5. It does not demand that the wife lay her life for her husband. Why?

You believe that equality is 'sameness', which is exactly the concept of Harrison Bergeron - of the levellers, which seek to remove the differences by making all the same.

I believe in equality of form - not function, that all are equal and no individual is less valuable than one another - despite the many differences that exist. You don't exalt a beggar by stealing from the plutocrat - anymore so than the plutocrat would wash the feet of the beggar to provide him confort. Yet, Christ himself specifically says, and demands that anyone who follows him - puts aside these differences, be they Jew or Greek, slave or free - all are alike IN CHRIST.

Not in themselves. IN CHRIST, and only IN CHRIST can they be truly equal where the differences no longer matter.

You would substitute submission to Christ for autonomy away from him, and level the differences rather than accepting them for what they are. Men and women are not the same, but that doesn't mean that men are less valuable than woman.

[kentonio]

Why do you think Elizabeth I was excommunicated?

Because the vatican falsely believed that the Catholic rebellion they sponsored had been successful. They tried to support treason and ended up looking stupid. This has what to do with America?

[Ben Kenobi]

The old boys in Rome just want to keep their country club all male.

Priests have very specific duties in service to their parish.

I remember growing up and hearing the hints from all of our teachers (Nuns) that they wished they could contribute more by being priests.

Did you ask them why they felt that the contributions of the priest were considered to be more than their own contributions? I can quote Ste. Therese directly on this (who was a nun and one of the few female doctors of the church).

She writes, very bluntly, that her calling was to minister to the overlooked, to those who weren't getting the attention that they needed, the ignored, the despised, the difficult. She talks about the 'Little way', of loving God like a child would - and doing the little things for Him.

So if it's good enough for Ste Therese - why would I ever say that the nuns have the lesser calling? Are you going to argue with her that you know more about being a woman?

Why should they be considered so lowly that they can't administer the sacraments.

Monks can't administer the sacraments either - a nun is the equivalent of a monk. Only priests can. Priests administer the sacrament to the nuns, to the monks, to the entire parish as need be.

This was one of the major reasons why I eventually said enough.

Well, if you sincerely believed that only priests were actually serving God, and that everyone else's contributions amounted to nothing, then I can certainly understand why you feel this way. However - it's not what the Church teaches, and is in fact, entirely contrary to what Christ teaches about the proper relationship between the priests and his parish. He is the servant, not the one being served.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't know much about Catholicism.

I am speaking from my own tradition (where women pastors is a source of conflict, often accepted in NA but not at all in Africa/etc).

JM

Interesting thing is that in both of my traditions (Pentecostal and ELCA Lutheran) women pastors are very uncontroversial. Female pastors have been in the ECLA (Evangelican Lutheran Church of America) for a while (1970, IIRC), while Pentecostalism, for being very conservative on other aspects have been accepting for female pastors due to the belief that the Holy Spirit can fall upon any person regardless of gender (or race for that matter).

[Ben Kenobi]

Because the vatican falsely believed that the Catholic rebellion they sponsored had been successful. They tried to support treason and ended up looking stupid. This has what to do with America?

The Calvarts and the colony of Maryland?

She was excommunicated for executing priests that performed the sacraments. Why is it that there were no Catholic priests in England - no heirarchy from 1550 to 1850 - over 300 years? It was only restored in 1850, when the priests were allowed to come back after Catholic Emancipation.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think that Christians should be able to feel that homosexual activity is sinful and speak their mind. But the attacks/etc have got to stop, and if they hold that interpretation than they should devote just as much time and strength to lying, cheating, mistreating the poor/sick/prisoner, and so on. And even fairly good Christian groups fail on this latter point.

Is there serious disagreement that lying, cheating, mistreating the poor is wrong?

Is there serious disagreement that homosexuality is wrong?

[Ben Kenobi]

I should run a poll - how many of you believe that men and women are fundamentally the same?

[Jon Miller]

Do more people engage in homosexual activity or do more people lie?

Do more people who attend church engage in homosexual activity or do more people who attend church lie?

Why do these churches spend all this effort attacking one sin (which they mostly (I assume) do not hold) while spending little time or acting very forgiving towards other sins (which they mostly do hold)?

It would make one think that they are being hypocritical and self-righteous. These are sins too.

JM