Hello everybody

[Nikolai]

I don't know much about Catholicism.

I am speaking from my own tradition (where women pastors is a source of conflict, often accepted in NA but not at all in Africa/etc).

JM

Same here. I am part of a community that allows women to preach and take part of the service, but they can't be elders or the spiritual leader of our community, which is what a priest really is at the bottom of it. I'm fine with it. I accept that the Bible as I understand it tells me this is how it should be. I don't understand why it is like that, but I believe the Bible should be the fundation of my faith, and it tells me this.

Show some tolerance for once rah.

[kentonio]

Is it equality if we have firemen and firewomen, or only if we have firepersons?

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, then it is a 'duck'. Even if one sex is called a drake and the other is called a duck.

JM
( I speak as a member of a church which has controversy about women's ordination (it is accepted in NA mostly, while not in Africa/etc) while being founded by a woman. )

I don't see where you're going with that. You seemed to be arguing that it isn't an equality issue because you've heard lots of women arguing against it. I just don't see how that stops it from being an equality issue.

[rah]

At our parish the Rectory was larger than the Convent despite their being only 3 priests and over 20 nuns. The priest had luxurious bedroom suites with house keepers and cooks. They smoked expensive cigars and drove around in expensive cars. The Nuns were cramped into 9x9 cells and had to do their own cooking and cleaning. Priests weren't required to teach any classes since that was considered beneath them.
So even if you take away the fact that they couldn't become priests or rise to positions of power in the church, they were still treated like second class citizens.
Many other religions attract new people by taking into account the new realities in terms of the modern world. The RCC keeps hanging onto the old belief that women aren't as good as men.

You exclude women from spiritual leadership roles and you're telling me show some tolerance. what a f***ing hypocrite.

[Jon Miller]

I am saying that in my tradition in the US, even in the 'women can not be pastors' side

1. women can preach
2. women can be elders
3. women can be ministers
4. women can lead organizations/etc
5. the chief founder and leader was a woman
and so on....

As long as the 'women should not be pastors' side does not seek to deny women these actions, than I don't think their interpretation of a few words of Paul is an equality issue (despite the fact that I don't share their interpretation).

JM

[Jon Miller]

At our parish the Rectory was larger than the Convent despite their being only 3 priests and over 20 nuns. The priest had luxurious bedroom suites with house keepers and cooks. They smoked expensive cigars and drove around in expensive cars. The Nuns were cramped into 9x9 cells and had to do their own cooking and cleaning. Priests weren't required to teach any classes since that was considered beneath them.
So even if you take away the fact that they couldn't become priests or rise to positions of power in the church, they were still treated like second class citizens.
Many other religions attract new people by taking into account the new realities in terms of the modern world. The RCC keeps hanging onto the old belief that women aren't as good as men.

This might be why nuns seem to not be as corrupted as priests over the history of the Catholic church.

JM

[Nikolai]

At our parish the Rectory was larger than the Convent despite their being only 3 priests and over 20 nuns. The priest had luxurious bedroom suites with house keepers and cooks. They smoked expensive cigars and drove around in expensive cars. The Nuns were cramped into 9x9 cells and had to do their own cooking and cleaning. Priests weren't required to teach any classes since that was considered beneath them.
So even if you take away the fact that they couldn't become priests or rise to positions of power in the church, they were still treated like second class citizens.
Many other religions attract new people by taking into account the new realities in terms of the modern world. The RCC keeps hanging onto the old belief that women aren't as good as men.

And that is wrong. It shouldn't be like that. I'm afraid Christians are not exempt from the terribly state of sin. I hope this was reported to someone who took action!

[Nikolai]

I am saying that in my tradition in the US, even in the 'women can not be pastors' side

1. women can preach
2. women can be elders
3. women can be ministers
4. women can lead organizations/etc
5. the chief founder and leader was a woman
and so on....

As long as the 'women should not be pastors' side does not seek to deny women these actions, than I don't think their interpretation of a few words of Paul is an equality issue (despite the fact that I don't share their interpretation).

JM

As I said, in my congregation they can't be elders or spiritual leader/priest, but otherwise they can be anything.

[Asher]

And that is wrong. It shouldn't be like that. I'm afraid Christians are not exempt from the terribly state of sin. I hope this was reported to someone who took action!

Err. It's the norm...

Genitalia should have no bearing on the role someone can play. It's plain old sexism. There's not even a discussion about this. It's by definition.

The Church has always been a hundred years behind everyone else. Frankly, I'm surprised they don't flog the darkies for the nerve of attending the same facilities.

[Nikolai]

Err. It's the norm...

Then that certainly should be adressed.

[Asher]

Then that certainly should be adressed.

Yes, by leaving the RCC.

[Jon Miller]

Sounds good to me.

JM

[rah]

And that is wrong. It shouldn't be like that. I'm afraid Christians are not exempt from the terribly state of sin. I hope this was reported to someone who took action!

Yeah, I'm sure it was reported to the Cardinal who showed up with his fat cigar in his Caddy and said, nothing amiss here. It's been over 40 years, and nothing has changed.

As I said, in my congregation they can't be elders or spiritual leader/priest, but otherwise they can be anything.

Gee that's like saying that back in the 60's that women couldn't be executives at corporations, but otherwise they can be anything. Do you even know how sexist that sounds?

[Nikolai]

Yes, by leaving the RCC.

I'm not part of the RCC, but no. Reform should be done inside.

[Asher]

Gee that's like saying that back in the 60's that women couldn't be executives at corporations, but otherwise they can be anything. Do you even know how sexist that sounds?

While personally I support female executives (I don't think there is legal basis to not allow it), I have had enough women (who were the dominant personalities in the corporations I've worked in) give seminars that women should not be executives, to feel that this issue is not one of equality.

[Nikolai]

Yeah, I'm sure it was reported to the Cardinal who showed up with his fat cigar in his Caddy and said, nothing amiss here. It's been over 40 years, and nothing has changed.

What can I say, not good. Not good at all.

Gee that's like saying that back in the 60's that women couldn't be executives at corporations, but otherwise they can be anything. Do you even know how sexist that sounds?

Not close. Scripture is binding. And besides, those who agree(which is a lot of women I assure you) accepts it. Those who don't are free to find a congregation that is not that conservative. They exist. A lot of them.