Hello everybody

[Ben Kenobi]

You said the balance of social change in the last 100 years was negative. Of course the obvious implication of my statement is that there's nothing that even comes close to balancing out the good social changes that have occurred in that timeframe.

I'm not quite sure how extending slavery to everyone through taxation is a 'good' social change. You used to be able to own a house, get an education, and make a decent wage and living without being crippled with debt as you are today. Now, that's not really the case for most people. Is this an example of how society has improved? I really don't see it.

Since 1964 with the passing of the civil rights act, close to half a century ago, what advances have been made in social change?

[Ben Kenobi]

Gay people may make up about ten percent of population. Granting ten percent of population equal marriage rights will not force the other ninety percent to stop reproducing.

If society has an interest in it's preservation and propagation, why would it treat two things that aren't the same by asserting that they are?

[Aeson]

I'm not quite sure how extending slavery to everyone through taxation is a 'good' social change. You used to be able to own a house, get an education, and make a decent wage and living without being crippled with debt as you are today. Now, that's not really the case for most people. Is this an example of how society has improved? I really don't see it.

Since 1964 with the passing of the civil rights act, close to half a century ago, what advances have been made in social change?

First, that's an economic and personal finance issue you're pointing out. It's not slavery. I own a (half finished) house, land, no debt, and I've never made more than $17,000 in a single year of my life. Most years under $10k. Just because a lot of people choose different paths than I did doesn't mean they are slaves. The fact that such a huge variation in lifestyle is possible (by choice) shows just how free we are economically.

Things that have gotten worse since 1964 ... DOMA, knee-jerk reactions to terrorism (Patriot Act, NDAA), anti-piracy/internet security stupidity (SOPA like crap), not being willing to pay for or fix social programs, and reverse racism (Affirmative Action). It's good you realize those are awful things for our society.

[giblets]

Gay people may make up about ten percent of population. Granting ten percent of population equal marriage rights will not force the other ninety percent to stop reproducing.

Bull****, there's no way ten percent of people are gay.

[Aeson]

Bull****, there's no way ten percent of people are gay.

Close to 100% of people on the internet are gay.

[giblets]

As of April 2011, approximately 3.5% of American adults identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual, while 0.3% are transgender—approximately 11.7 million Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

Where did MrFun get such an absurd number?

[Tupac Shakur]

Oerdin?

[MrFun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_de..._United_States

Where did MrFun get such an absurd number?

You're saying they tracked down every single person on earth who is gay, including the ones who are in the closet and so the possible maximum is only 3.5 percent?

[MrFun]

What is absurd about the possibility that ten percent of population is gay?

[MrFun]

If society has an interest in it's preservation and propagation, why would it treat two things that aren't the same by asserting that they are?

They're the same in that, at least in the Western world, people who marry, tend to marry for the same reason - out of love. It's basically replaced marriages for economic and/or political reasons.

[giblets]

You're saying they tracked down every single person on earth who is gay, including the ones who are in the closet and so the possible maximum is only 3.5 percent?

So the absence of evidence for homosexuals beyond 3.5% of the population is proof that 10% of Americans are homosexual?

[giblets]

What is absurd about the possibility that ten percent of population is gay?

The size of the estimate.

[-Jrabbit]

I believe that changing societal norms is a harm. One of the goals of society is to maintain laws, rules and practices which have worked to sustain society for generations. Changing those rules damages society as a whole and makes it less able to cope with other stresses. One of the rules is that marriage is to be between one man and one woman.

I think that society at present is much weaker than it was close to a hundred years ago, because of the changes that have been wrought since then. In some ways it has improved, but in many ways it has not, and I believe the balance is negative. Gay marriage is merely the last of a long sequence of changes that have had the same goal in mind.

I reject the assertion that the government needs to make laws encouraging reproduction. People pretty much do that on their own. "Sustaining" society is not the issue here; there is no fertility crisis or unwillingness to reproduce. The idea that breeding is an activity that is "solemnified" by the government through marriage and thus deserves special status is laughable.

I especially reject the idea that "changing rules damages society as a whole." 100 years ago, separate but equal race laws were in force. Women did not enjoy basic suffrage. Not too long before that, child labor and slave labor were thought of as necessary to the economy. But then those damned liberals freed the slaves, gave women the vote, and gave the blacks legal equality.

It's a world gone mad.

[MrFun]

So the absence of evidence for homosexuals beyond 3.5% of the population is proof that 10% of Americans are homosexual?

Never said ten percent is absolutely fact. Did you see the words I used as qualifiers, like "may" and "possibly?"

[MrFun]

The size of the estimate.

ten percent is not huge