Hello everybody

[rah]

I still want to know how a gay couple being married personally harms you. Or why you should even care.

[Ben Kenobi]

I still want to know how a gay couple being married personally harms you.

Is the primary goal of society to protect one from personal harm?

[rah]

And how does that do personal harm?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's a valid question, rah.

What do you believe is the primary goal of society? I'm curious, because your answer to that will also answer your question.

[rah]

Don't change the question. How does allowing them to marry cause them personal harm?

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't change the question. How does allowing them to marry cause them personal harm?

I believe that changing societal norms is a harm. One of the goals of society is to maintain laws, rules and practices which have worked to sustain society for generations. Changing those rules damages society as a whole and makes it less able to cope with other stresses. One of the rules is that marriage is to be between one man and one woman.

I think that society at present is much weaker than it was close to a hundred years ago, because of the changes that have been wrought since then. In some ways it has improved, but in many ways it has not, and I believe the balance is negative. Gay marriage is merely the last of a long sequence of changes that have had the same goal in mind.

[kentonio]

I think that society at present is much weaker than it was close to a hundred years ago, because of the changes that have been wrought since then.

Society a hundred years ago consisted of a vast number of poor people being exploited by a tiny number of very rich people. Despite the obvious recent parallels, please explain how people are worse off now than they were then.

[rah]

All you could use was "I believe" and "I think" Always solid argument material. Even you said that some changes improve and some don't. Prove this one doesn't.

We believe/think that you're just a bigot that can't come up with one single hard fact that you or they are harmed by this.

[Ben Kenobi]

Society a hundred years ago consisted of a vast number of poor people being exploited by a tiny number of very rich people.

As opposed to now?

Despite the obvious recent parallels, please explain how people are worse off now than they were then.

Look at the marriage rate and the number of children born outside of marriage. This has a significant intergenerational increase in poverty especially among minorities in America. It's been a sea change since the fifties. Families that are already broken are much weaker than families that remain together, and are significantly more dependent on social assistance.

This increases the overall burden on society in general and increases the constraints on the families that are together and doing well, as they have to support the ones that do not.

[Ben Kenobi]

Rah:

How does allowing them to marry cause them personal harm?

Are you asking me, "how does allowing them to marry cause ME personal harm", or "how does allowing them to marry cause THEM personal harm"?

These are two distinct questions. I answered the first one you asked. Yes, it is my opinion, but that is what you asked me about, my beliefs and my opinion. If you want a clinical assessment of the harms induced to the participants, I'd be happy to give you one, but I have to be sure that is the question that you are asking.

[kentonio]

As opposed to now?

At least now people have some basic protections in place to avoid them dying in the gutter when they slip out of productivity.

Look at the marriage rate and the number of children born outside of marriage. This has a significant intergenerational increase in poverty especially among minorities in America. It's been a sea change since the fifties. Families that are already broken are much weaker than families that remain together, and are significantly more dependent on social assistance.

You have no idea how many children were born out of wedlock a hundred years ago, because like many things it was hidden away and not publicized. A bit like the massive amounts of domestic violence that all those 'happy' marriages led to.

[Ben Kenobi]

At least now people have some basic protections in place to avoid them dying in the gutter when they slip out of productivity.

You might want to ask Dr. Strangelove about those 'basic protections', and their quality of assistance for those in truly dire straights.

You have no idea how many children were born out of wedlock a hundred years ago

Since the forties we have good numbers, and the results are rather striking. Feel free to contest my opinions, but they do have facts behind them for the deterioration of society. It has been a steady increase, and an increase in one direction. In another 10 years, more than half will be born outside of marriage. And yes, people in general doing worse impacts me, I might as well quote Jon Donne, "it tolls for thee".

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.pdf

[giblets]

Is the primary goal of society to protect one from personal harm?

The primary goal of the government is to stop other people from harming you.

[rah]

And all of these bad things can be laid at the feet of gay couples. What a joke.

And Ben, how again are you harmed. You're harmed because you think you're harmed. What a laugh.
And yes, I'd love to hear how you think they're harmed. I would think that getting them into committed relationships would be safer than the dating scene, similar to hetero couples.

[Ben Kenobi]

The primary goal of the government is to stop other people from harming you.

Government, at least under the common law has the power to regularize and solemnize marriage, among their other powers.