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  • #91
    Ta Nehisi Coates raises the issue of Sotamyor's remarks in his own perfectly confused way:
    It's worth looking at the whole speech, and at least considering the statement in context:

    'Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.'

    I think we can immediately dispense with the crazies who think this statement should disqualify Sotomayor for the Supreme Court. It's worth noting that William Rehnquist once endorsed segregation, and yet rose to be Chief Justice of the court.

    That said, I think Sotomayor's statement is quite wrong. I understand the basis of it, laid out pretty well by Kerry Howley over at Hit & Run. The idea is that Latinos have a dual experience that whites don't have and that, all things being equal, they'll be able to pull from that experience and see things that whites don't. The problem with this reasoning is it implicitly accepts the logic (made for years by white racists) that there is something essential and unifying running through all white people, everywhere. But White--as we know it--is a word so big that, as a descriptor of experience, it almost doesn't exist.

    Indeed, it's claims are preposterous. It seeks to lump the miner in Eastern Kentucky, the Upper West Side Jew, the yuppie in Seattle, the Irish Catholic in South Boston, the hipster in Brooklyn, the Cuban-American in Florida, or even the Mexican-American in California all together, and erase the richness of their experience, by marking the bag "White." This is a lie--and another example of how a frame invented (and for decades endorsed) by whites is, at the end of the day, bad for whites. White racism, in this country, was invented to erase the humanity and individuality of blacks. But for it to work it must, necessarily, erase the humanity of whites, too.

    Sotomayor, unwittingly, buys into that logic by conjuring the strawman of "a white male." But, in the context that she's discussing, no such person exists. What is true of the straight Polish-American in Chicago, may not be true for the white gay dude working in D.C. I'm not even convinced that what is true for the white dude in West Texas, is true for the white dude in Austin--or that what's true of the white dude in Austin, is true of other white dudes in Austin. There's just too much variation among people to make such a broad statement about millions of people.


    The crux of Ta Nehisi's opinion appears to be Sotomayor buys into certain prejudices about what "white" people, but because these prejudices are now very fashionable, that makes Sotomayor perfectly suited for an appointment to the Supreme Court. Of course, if a white judge were to remark (for example) that he had the kind of high-powered commercial business experience that minorities didn't have, and that this qualified him for the judgeship and made him a better decision-maker, well, that would be racist and tremendously horrifying. But if a wise Latina says she knows things white people don't, that's fine. I mean, it's racist, but doesn't past oppression and racism "justify" her racist actions? Is she not merely an automaton impelled forward by the movements of racist "white" people, completely devoid of a conscience or ability to think independently and make moral decisions of her own? Isn't it wonderfully "tolerant" of me to excuse her racism?

    The effect of affirmative action and "disproportionate impact" is to encourage racial divisions--the kind that brings about confessional politics and confessional elites. The Wrights, Jacksons, Farrakhans and Dukes of today may become the Jumblatts and Nasrallahs of tomorrow.
    Last edited by Zevico; January 21, 2012, 20:09.
    "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

    Comment


    • #92
      Farrakhans?!?! He's a scum.
      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Zevico View Post
        Ta Nehisi Coates raises the issue of Sotamyor's remarks in his own perfectly confused way:
        It's worth looking at the whole speech, and at least considering the statement in context:

        Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.

        I think we can immediately dispense with the crazies who think this statement should disqualify Sotomayor for the Supreme Court. It's worth noting that William Rehnquist once endorsed segregation, and yet rose to be Chief Justice of the court.

        That said, I think Sotomayor's statement is quite wrong. I understand the basis of it, laid out pretty well by Kerry Howley over at Hit & Run. The idea is that Latinos have a dual experience that whites don't have and that, all things being equal, they'll be able to pull from that experience and see things that whites don't. The problem with this reasoning is it implicitly accepts the logic (made for years by white racists) that there is something essential and unifying running through all white people, everywhere. But White--as we know it--is a word so big that, as a descriptor of experience, it almost doesn't exist.

        Indeed, it's claims are preposterous. It seeks to lump the miner in Eastern Kentucky, the Upper West Side Jew, the yuppie in Seattle, the Irish Catholic in South Boston, the hipster in Brooklyn, the Cuban-American in Florida, or even the Mexican-American in California all together, and erase the richness of their experience, by marking the bag "White." This is a lie--and another example of how a frame invented (and for decades endorsed) by whites is, at the end of the day, bad for whites. White racism, in this country, was invented to erase the humanity and individuality of blacks. But for it to work it must, necessarily, erase the humanity of whites, too.

        Sotomayor, unwittingly, buys into that logic by conjuring the strawman of "a white male." But, in the context that she's discussing, no such person exists. What is true of the straight Polish-American in Chicago, may not be true for the white gay dude working in D.C. I'm not even convinced that what is true for the white dude in West Texas, is true for the white dude in Austin--or that what's true of the white dude in Austin, is true of other white dudes in Austin. There's just too much variation among people to make such a broad statement about millions of people.


        The crux of Ta Nehisi's opinion appears to be Sotomayor buys into certain prejudices about what "white" people, but because these prejudices are now very fashionable, that makes Sotomayor perfectly suited for an appointment to the Supreme Court. Of course, if a white judge were to remark (for example) that he had the kind of high-powered commercial business experience that minorities didn't have, and that this qualified him for the judgeship and made him a better decision-maker, well, that would be racist and tremendously horrifying. But if a wise Latina says she knows things white people don't, that's fine. I mean, it's racist, but doesn't past oppression and racism "justify" her racist actions? Is she not merely an automaton impelled forward by the movements of racist "white" people, completely devoid of a conscience or ability to think independently and make moral decisions of her own? Isn't it wonderfully "tolerant" of me to excuse her racism?

        The effect of affirmative action and "disproportionate impact" is to encourage racial divisions--the kind that brings about confessional politics and confessional elites. The Wrights, Jacksons, Farrakhans and Dukes of today may become the Jumblatts and Nasrallahs of tomorrow.
        Actually, the better question here is: who are you posting this for?
        “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
        "Capitalism ho!"

        Comment


        • #94
          And if anyone doesn't think it's a serious problem, just remember that fellows like Al Sharpton et al attain their prestige, power and status because they stoke racism. Sharpton encouraged a race riot in the 90's and now has his own television show on MSNBC. But that riot was a while ago. Why not let bygones be bygones and race riots be race riots? What is the difference, morally and in terms of intent, between stoking a race riot and becoming the patron of a race-based, patronage-based, system of confessional political system? How long will Wright and his ilk bewail the lot of the "black" and call for benefits for the "black" so that they can live lives of confessional-elite comfort in million dollar homes? Do you think obtaining political power scares Wright? Or Sharpton? Or Jackson, the candidate for Presidential office? Do you think it can't happen? It can. It's not inevitable, but over time these movements can create an American Lebanon.
          "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

          Comment


          • #95
            You haven't yet made the case that it is a serious problem.
            “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
            "Capitalism ho!"

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Zevico View Post
              And if anyone doesn't think it's a serious problem, just remember that fellows like Al Sharpton et al attain their prestige, power and status because they stoke racism. Sharpton encouraged a race riot in the 90's and now has his own television show on MSNBC. But that riot was a while ago. Why not let bygones be bygones and race riots be race riots? What is the difference, morally and in terms of intent, between stoking a race riot and becoming the patron of a race-based, patronage-based, system of confessional political system? How long will Wright and his ilk bewail the lot of the "black" and call for benefits for the "black" so that they can live lives of confessional-elite comfort in million dollar homes? Do you think obtaining political power scares Wright? Or Sharpton? Or Jackson, the candidate for Presidential office? Do you think it can't happen? It can. It's not inevitable, but over time these movements can create an American Lebanon.

              Sharpton is another bastard.
              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

              Comment


              • #97
                Sharpton's no hero, but he doesn't create what isn't already there. Also, how did this thread become about reverse racism?
                “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                "Capitalism ho!"

                Comment


                • #98
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Thanks, DFG.
                    “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                    "Capitalism ho!"

                    Comment


                    • Not really. I don't have anything against skeletons, and I think David Duke is an idiot.
                      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DaShi View Post
                        You haven't yet made the case that it is a serious problem.
                        What is already happening is that racial quotas, known also as "affirmative action" and "disproportionate impact," create a system of incompetent private and governmental institutions staffed by the racially entitled. That's a serious problem because it weakens institutions and civil society. A less competent fire station fired by less competent firemen; a poorly run hospital or school; a business run into the ground. It will be death by a thousand cuts.

                        A worst case scenario is that this kind of race-based discrimination will encourage already existing racist ideas and cultures. To some extent it already does that. But this can and does lead to race-based, confessional politics and political systems and race-based patronage. That can create an American Lebanon--an America run by Al Sharptons of every colour, stoking up racial hatreds and riots to get entitlements from the state. This is a worst-case scenario but it can happen.
                        Last edited by Zevico; January 21, 2012, 22:54.
                        "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

                        Comment


                        • Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. I honestly didn't expect to see this since the GOP seems to love the man who's "turn it was".

                          Newt Gingrich easily beats Mitt Romney in South Carolina's primary and opens up the race for the Republican candidacy in the US presidential vote.
                          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                          Comment


                          • It's almost laughable hearing Romney and the others say what they think Obama has done. "Obama has raised taxes", uh, no, he's cut them. "Obama has appeased Islamists", oh, no, he's killed OBL, bombed other Islamists around the world, and his killed more than any other in the past. "Obama is a socialist", would that he was. "Obama has made the government ever larger", actually, no, there are no more Federal employees today as when he took office despite the population growing larger.

                            Republicans are just born liars trying to fight a shadow opponent who is exactly the opposite of reality.
                            Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                            Comment


                            • Republicans love to lie and be hypocrites. Just look at Newt Gingrich. Can't wait for him to say something about needing to protect the sanctity of marriage.

                              Comment


                              • The sad state of the GOP. It's cookng with Sarah Palin.

                                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                                Comment

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