Why do you hate Secular Humanism?

[Kidlicious]

Christian thinking can not be divorced from western thought and meldedtogether with something that is it's opposite, or it ceases to be christianity anymore.

I have a real problem with what you are doing here.

[Elok]

Christian thinking can not be divorced from western thought and meldedtogether with something that is it's opposite, or it ceases to be christianity anymore.

I have a real problem with what you are doing here.

Again, two problems:

1. Western thought is not identical to Christianity. It to some extent predates Christianity, and was partially integrated into the faith. However, Western thought as a whole has for the past several centuries been rather indifferent, if not outright hostile, to religion in general and Christianity in particular.
2. I'm not melding anything, I'm pointing out that what they're saying, or at least what you say they're saying, is not totally unreasonable from our point of view. There is a substantial difference. You really would benefit from learning to appreciate nuance.

[Kidlicious]

Also, here:



1. I never said we didn't have individual consciousness, I said that even from a Christian POV, we're not really totally independent. IE, I wasn't talking about Buddhism there.

What you're doing is arguing that christianity and buddhism are similar in regards to their respective beliefs on the individual. They are not.

2. I never said "it's all one consciousness." That's not even Buddhist, it's more Hindu, and even they (possibly with some exceptions) believe in an individual soul as well. Albeit the idea is to realize that atman, the individual soul, is in some sense one with brahman, the big cosmic soul.

They do not believe in the individual. It's an illusion, your own words.

[Elok]

What you're doing is arguing that christianity and buddhism are similar in regards to their respective beliefs on the individual. They are not.

Not very similar, no. However, Christianity does not require an utterly antithetical POV. Certainly not all forms of Christianity.

They do not believe in the individual. It's an illusion, your own words.

Why would "they believe consciousness is an illusion" lead you to think they believe in an overarching superconsciousness of some sort? That's actually the opposite of what I said.

[Kidlicious]

Again, two problems:

1. Western thought is not identical to Christianity. It to some extent predates Christianity, and was partially integrated into the faith. However, Western thought as a whole has for the past several centuries been rather indifferent, if not outright hostile, to religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Christianity developed within the context of western thought. Do you know of any christian fathers who didn't believe in the self in a western way? God himself chose the west for christianity. Not that it shouldnt spread eastward, but it must remain the same, or it will not be christianity.

2. I'm not melding anything, I'm pointing out that what they're saying, or at least what you say they're saying, is not totally unreasonable from our point of view. There is a substantial difference. You really would benefit from learning to appreciate nuance.

No, what you're doing is disagreeing with everything I post. You are not doing a good job of bull****ting and showing the similarities. Youre contradicting yoursef.

[Kidlicious]

Differing forms of christianity, are not true. There is only one christianity. Christians can be wrong, and often are. There is only one truth.

[Kidlicious]

All that you've done is showing why buddhism should bug christians. Its very different.

[Elok]

Christianity developed within the context of western thought. Do you know of any christian fathers who didn't believe in the self in a western way? God himself chose the west for christianity. Not that it shouldnt spread eastward, but it must remain the same, or it will not be christianity.

1. I have not said that we have the same conception of selfhood as Buddhists. All I have said is that even we do not believe every human consciousness is completely independent in every respect--we are affected by each others' actions. You ran with this and turned it into a claim that I'm proposing some sort of syncretism. I am not. Buddhism is interesting to think about, but it is not and should not be Christianity.

2. All three of the Abrahamic religions developed in the Middle East. What we call Western thought is a batch of Greek notions fed through a Roman lens and reinterpreted by a bunch of Romanized Germanics over the course of a couple of thousand years. As an Orthodox Christian, I am keenly aware of how Western ideas have actually modified the Christian perspective over the years. Some of these changes are, to my way of thinking, harmless. Others, such as Anselm of Canterbury's legalistic ideas on the Atonement, are not.

No, what you're doing is disagreeing with everything I post. You are not doing a good job of bull****ting and showing the similarities. Youre contradicting yoursef.

No, I'm not. You're just not reading me correctly. I'm disagreeing with the things you post because the things you post are incorrect.

[Elok]

All that you've done is showing why buddhism should bug christians. Its very different.

The fact that it's very different is no reason why it should "bug" us, whatever you're using that word to mean. Very rarely has Buddhism been used to justify abuse of Christians.

[Kidlicious]

I'm not suppose to be affected by you, or anyone else. Nothing you do or say can make me change my belief in myself or my god. I AM INDEPENDENT OF YOU. However I depend on my god, but I made that choice as an individual. This is not only consistent with western thinking, not really eastern thinking, but it is consistent with relevant ancient cultural thinking.

[Kidlicious]

The fact that it's very different is no reason why it should "bug" us, whatever you're using that word to mean. Very rarely has Buddhism been used to justify abuse of Christians.

I can be bugged but what I choose. I'm an individual, and you have no effect on me.

[Lorizael]

I believe Kid is trying to say that he's this angry and belligerent with everyone, regardless of how they act, because no on can affect him.

[Elok]

Come to think of it, that class didn't cover Jains either. There really are a lot more Eastern than Western religions.

[Elok]

I can be bugged but what I choose. I'm an individual, and you have no effect on me.

You admitted in another thread that you're sticking around at least partially to spite my ostensible desire that you leave. I don't even have such a desire, and I certainly wasn't aiming for such an effect, but I had it anyway purely by accident. How are you independent?

[Kidlicious]

I really don't think the OC is as screwed up as Elok is. He's got nothing better to do on a Sunday but argue forcefully in favor of non-christian beliefs.