Thread for people to explain how immigrants take jobs

[Aeson]

Do tell.

See your free aneurysm. It doesn't mean you value your life less than 0 per hour.

[Jon Miller]

Well, I haven't moved to create certification requirements for my profession, and would agitate against them. So yes.

What is the difference between an employer displaying a preference (and in fact, only considering) economics/math/physics PhDs and an employer displaying a preference (and in fact, only considering) certified MDs?

It is true that there are 'limits' to who can practice medicine. But there is nothing stopping me from starting some sort of 'healing practice' or something (I guess I do have to name it some approved name) and prescribing medicine and treatment. Sure, I can't prescribe certain types of treatments, but surely that is another matter (should governments control substances).

If a hospital started employing a homeopathologist to give treatment, most people wouldn't go to it....

JM

[KrazyHorse]

You're a moron. You got lost in the conversation and don't even know what you're talking about

You stated you value your life more because you wouldn't accept the increased pay he does for the increased risk. For your reasoning to hold true you have to assume that the only variable involved is how much you value your life. That clearly isn't the case though, as there are many other variables involved in whether to take a job or not. I pointed out one of the possibilities, the desire to serve. I did not attribute it to anyone in specific, though I did point out you were not allowing for it.

You were claiming you can determine the price a person places on their life solely by the wage they accept. This is clearly not the case. A person who values their life by X, but also wants to serve people to the same extent would ask no different than a person who values their life by 2X and wants to serve people twice as badly as the first person.

I sometimes wonder if there really is something wrong with you. I'm not the one "lost" here; instead, I used the entire discussion in constructing my response, while you've focused on a single portion of it (this concentration on detail while being unable to take in the entire picture is something you've done time and time again, and is part of what makes you such a worthless poster). If there was a sacrifice being made he wouldn't be *****ing about it. Therefore through his revealed choices and his words here, it is obvious that his life (insofar as it is risked by his job) is worth less than 25$ an hour to him.

[Jon Miller]

I don't understand why you are against people being informed.

People are suppose to be rational economic actors. How can they be rational if they lack information, such as that doctor A is certified.

Most people can think enough to realize that if they really want to find uncertified doctor B that they can. And some do. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...3bHrN5bzpvPjRJ

JM

[Dinner]

Briefly reading it would make me a rent seeker if i was in a union. I'm not. Georgia is a so-called right to work state. I've already stated this several times.
So calling me the curse word "rent seeker" is also in error. In addition to making a false assumption(ass out of yourself)
Stating that I am whining when I'm not is also in error.
Could you possibly admit you are wrong. Could you possibly....apologize..

KH is a nice guy in person but admitting he's wrong about something has never been a strong point for him.

[Pax]

I sometimes wonder if there really is something wrong with you. I'm not the one "lost" here; instead, I used the entire discussion in constructing my response, while you've focused on a single portion of it (this concentration on detail while being unable to take in the entire picture is something you've done time and time again, and is part of what makes you such a worthless poster). If there was a sacrifice being made he wouldn't be *****ing about it. Therefore through his revealed choices and his words here, it is obvious that his life (insofar as it is risked by his job) is worth less than 25$ an hour to him.

Actually you did not use the entire discussion in constructing your response. I've already restated my point several times and you still carry on like you're...well...crazy.

[KrazyHorse]

What is the difference between an employer displaying a preference (and in fact, only considering) economics/math/physics PhDs and an employer displaying a preference (and in fact, only considering) certified MDs?

There are two points here: one obvious and one more subtle

1) Hospitals do not display a "preference" for MDs. There are legal requirements for MDs
2) Even in cases where there is no legal pressure, a single point of certification creates monopolistic rents. PhD granting departments are not regulated by a certification board in the same way as MDs are (both their institutions and individually through certification exams, residency requirements etc)

Let's be clear: in an environment where there are a few (or as few as two, assuming no collusion) parallel, non-legally required certification schemes, the purpose served by these certifications is likely legitimate (it provides information about competence). The medical certification boards (along with those for lawyers and other professions) are nothing like this.

[Jon Miller]

The issue isn't doctors being certified.

The issue is that training for doctors is (possibly) more difficult in the US than it needs be. Doctors can come from other countries and become certified fairly easily I believe (and it is much cheaper for them). Doctors in the US have a strenuous training process before they are allowed to be certified.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

Do you really expect people to believe that you would vote to reduce your own pay?

Unlike the rest of you lot, I am unwilling to increase my pay in a way that is obviously destructive to the common good.

[Kidlicious]

troll

[Aeson]

If there was a sacrifice being made he wouldn't be *****ing about it.

That is not necessarily true. A person could be making a sacrifice of themselves in a situation where they were being paid less than what the job was worth. It's very difficult to say how much the price is due to sacrifice, and how much it would be due to other factors that would increase pay demands.

I don't know if Pax fits that. He doesn't seem to be complaining much about his pay in the first place. Just saying that his life is worth more than the pay. That would suggest that at least in his mind he is sacrificing security to do something other than be rewarded monetarily for it.

Therefore through his revealed choices and his words here, it is obvious that his life (insofar as it is risked by his job) is worth less than 25$ an hour to him.

You're so ****ing stupid sometimes.

To whatever extent someone finds serving others of value, they are offsetting their "revealed choice" about how much they think their life is worth.

But in any case he isn't saying his life is worth $25/h by accepting $25/h. The real valuation would be much more complex than that because not all situations have the same risk of death. Not ot mention that not everyone goes into a job evaluating it solely based on the real risk of death. They may not consider it much, they may over or underestimate the risks involved.

Your "revealed choices" are thus a farce you idiot.

[KrazyHorse]

The issue isn't doctors being certified.

The issue is that training for doctors is (possibly) more difficult in the US than it needs be. Doctors can come from other countries and become certified fairly easily I believe (and it is much cheaper for them). Doctors in the US have a strenuous training process before they are allowed to be certified.

JM

I think you are being too legalistic about what I mean by "certification" here. I mean:

1) Accreditation of medical programs in a way which drastically reduces supply
2) Certification exams
3) Residency programs (both the length and the tightly regulated pay and conditions)

leading to attending physicians at the end

(2) is the least objectionable part of the whole thing

[C0ckney]

Now write a 250 word essay on precisely why paying people based on how much a poll of the general public suggests would be idiotic.

yeah nice try, but you said that teachers, nurses and police officers benefit at the expense of everyone else. i'm pointing out that people's preferences would be to pay those people more. so it would appear that union's efforts to raise the pay of those groups are line with what people want.

So in order to redistribute wealth downward we must first redistribute it upward? Great argument.

redistribution of wealth is a political question. in order for any redistribution to happen it is necessary to have a political environment conducive to that end. that means strong unions and social democratic political parties. if you look at countries which actually redistribute wealth effectively you will find both of these elements. the colleration is no accident.

[Jon Miller]

"She will probably need to be certified by the Educational Commission for Foriegn Medical Graduates (ECFMG), which involves passing Step I, II, and III of the USMLE exam. Most states require at least one year of supervised residency training by a program accredited by the Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) as the bare mininum for licensure. She would also probably need to be board certified in order to practice in a specialized field such as ENT."

Theoretically I think the only 'strenuous' part of this is the supervised residency training. It seems to be 1 year and not the 3-8 that is the US usual.

I actually know of people who go to foreign countries to study to be doctors (because it takes less time and is cheaper) and then return to the US to become certified and practice medicine.

An MD I think is 4+3 in the US and is a straight 5 years in the UK. Especially considering the expense of the last 3, I think this is a much bigger issue than certification.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

See your free aneurysm. It doesn't mean you value your life less than 0 per hour.

No, you see my description of why, when you take the discussion in toto, you can see that your objection makes no sense.