How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[Elok]

I've never heard of any kids being enthusiastic about the pledge of allegiance until you claimed you were.

QFT. Also, now that I think of it, the grumpy FB cartoons I mentioned are mostly posted by older people from the Eastern Shore. I can envision people in Kansas being enthusiastic about the pledge, but thanks to the national media I can also envision people from Kansas reading an illicit copy of Origin of Species, misinterpreting it radically and screwing a dog to try and "evolve" a smarter pet. It's entirely possible that kids out there, like kids on the conservative Eastern Shore, think of the pledge as "that annoying time when I have to turn off my iPod."

[Aeson]

I've never heard of any kids being enthusiastic about the pledge of allegiance until you claimed you were.

I've heard lots of both types of experiences.

[Elok]

Aeson, the disparity between your experience and that of every younger American poster here would seem to indicate that the words themselves aren't tremendously powerful. Growing up during the Cold War, living with an us vs. them mentality, would probably have some effect--as would being blasted on psychoactive drugs. I haven't had either experience, so I'm at a serious disadvantage here.

But I'm not all that nationalistic. Nor is Gribbler, or Lori, or anyone else here in my (approximate) age group except maybe HC--who's on record as thinking of the pledge as a bore, IIRC (it's been a lengthy thread). None of the people I grew up with, that I can recall, were very nationalistic, or are now. If it requires that you grow up in a highly conservative/jingoistic environment to "work," that's just fishy to me. The simplest conclusion is that it's not doing a damned thing, it's just the environment doing the work. I'll see your subjective experience and raise you mine and everybody else's where it did bupkus.

[Aeson]

To be clear, affirmations are not dependent on psychoactive drugs, and I only saw actual benefits from them after I was off medication entirely.

[Elok]

Even so, a mental hospital is NOT a school. Nor is a grown man with serious mental problems a typical child.

[Aeson]

But I'm not all that nationalistic. Nor is Gribbler, or Lori, or anyone else here in my (approximate) age group except maybe HC--who's on record as thinking of the pledge as a bore, IIRC (it's been a lengthy thread). None of the people I grew up with, that I can recall, were very nationalistic, or are now. If it requires that you grow up in a highly conservative/jingoistic environment to "work," that's just fishy to me. The simplest conclusion is that it's not doing a damned thing, it's just the environment doing the work. I'll see your subjective experience and raise you mine and everybody else's where it did bupkus.

I'm not nationalistic at all myself now.

You haven't been in that situation and so don't understand it. It's not like people are magically patriots out of the womb simply because of the community they are born into. There are methods by which a patriotic community instills that in new members. The pledge is one of them, specifically designed to target the young and impressionable, and do so day after day in a way that uses group dynamics to reinforce it.

[Elok]

And growing up surrounded by people who had certain values, absorbing their values osmotically as children do, had no influence to speak of?

[Aeson]

Even so, a mental hospital is NOT a school. Nor is a grown man with serious mental problems a typical child.

You're getting way too focused on my personal experience. Do you really think affirmations are only used to help adults with serious mental problems?

[Elok]

You know how I got the trendy liberal attitudes I held as a child? Parroting the opinions I heard my parents utter at the dinner table. Then bouncing them off my friends and interpreting them through what I was taught by my teachers and at church. Total effect of any and all recitations: nil.

[Aeson]

And growing up surrounded by people who had certain values, absorbing their values osmotically as children do, had no influence to speak of?

You're not listening. The pledge was by far the most common vehicle for that influence. (And the only vehicle charged with peer pressure.)

[Elok]

You're getting way too focused on my personal experience. Do you really think affirmations are only used to help adults with serious mental problems?

Well, I don't use them, so I'm going by what you're telling me here. I've heard of similar things being done by people trying to quit smoking, for example, and on the advice of self-help gurus ("every day in every way, I am getting better and better")--indeed, it's something of a comic cliche. I suppose the closest equivalent to them in my life would be singing at church, but that has none of the effect you described. Possibly because I'm not trying to form a relationship with my fellow-believers--that's what coffee hour is for--but to offer praise to God. They also don't contain anything like "I am a good person and I believe in myself," but then neither does the pledge.

[Elok]

You're not listening. The pledge was by far the most common vehicle for that influence. (And the only vehicle charged with peer pressure.)

So, when all your friends talked about how communists are evil whatevers, or played games where the bad guys were red spies or torturers or vodka-swilling troopers and the good guys were all-American soldiers or cops or FBI men, there was no peer pressure in that? You think saying something once a day was a more significant influence than the input of your friends, teachers, family, etc.?

[Lorizael]

I always used to play the Soviets in Red Alert. My father once told me he didn't approve, but I'm pretty sure he was joking.

[Aeson]

You know how I got the trendy liberal attitudes I held as a child? Parroting the opinions I heard my parents recite at the dinner table. Then bouncing them off my friends and interpreting them through what I was taught by my teachers and at church. Total effect of any and all recitations: nil.

Genuinely interested... what about prayer? It is a ritual in some cases that has some parallels. (I don't know your specific denomination, some are much more ritualistic about it than others.) Same with hymns (though with far more variation).

I know that in LDS church they have testimony meeting on the first Sunday of the month where people get up and bear witness to their belief. It could be just a "thank you" for some blessing, or a more personal insight into the person's belief in God. It's not a great analogy because it's not simultaneous or scripted, though a lot of it ends up following the same script one after another. Often very young children get up and bear their testimony. Basically reciting a script. There may be slight variations, but it invariably draws a lot of "awws" from the congregation. Certainly it has an effect. I know I bore my testimony many times and there's a real strong feeling you get from it that doesn't come from many other methods.

It's certainly a way the community builds off of each other's faith. While it's not the only vehicle for doing so, it's one that is rather potent.

[Aeson]

So, when all your friends talked about how communists are evil whatevers, or played games where the bad guys were red spies or torturers or vodka-swilling troopers and the good guys were all-American soldiers or cops or FBI men, there was no peer pressure in that?

Yes, it's an effect (on who we identify as bad guys), but not a peer pressure one in my case at least. We didn't care who was the "good guys" and "bad guys" and took turns playing both.

There wasn't any ritual to it either.

The JW kid who didn't stand up in class wasn't a "bad guy" in the play sense. He was a commie. (Didn't help he was the new kid.)

You think saying something once a day was a more significant influence than the input of your friends, teachers, family, etc.?

I've already stated that my parents were the most influential. The pledge was far and away the most common influence.