How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[Felch]

I think it's a cultural thing. In some cultures, the nationalistic indoctrination of schoolchildren is considered distasteful.

Why would you have state schools if not to indoctrinate children?

[giblets]

Yeah, if we don't want the state to make sure certain things are taught we might as well just have vouchers for private schools or something.

[Asher]

Liar.

If you google, you can see it happens all the ****ing time. It happened to me when I was there. Even IF I could get parental exemption, no one told me that and how was I supposed to know? Further, a quick google shows that only some states permit the parent exemption.

Also, check out this very recent Republican douchebaggery:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/07/gop-bill-would-make-pledge-of-allegiance-mandatory-for-michigan-students/

GOP bill would make Pledge of Allegiance mandatory for Michigan students

A group of Republican state senators have proposed a bill that would make the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory for every public school student in Michigan.

Republican state Sen. Roger Kahn’s SB 637 would also require schools to purchase a flag for every classroom.

“THE BOARD OF A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR INTERMEDIATE SCHOOL DISTRICT OR BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF A PUBLIC SCHOOL ACADEMY SHALL ENSURE THAT EACH PUPIL IN EACH PUBLIC SCHOOL IT OPERATES IS REQUIRED TO RECITE THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES EACH SCHOOL DAY,” the bill says.

The group Michigan Atheists opposes the bill, but not so much because of the phrase “under God” that students would be forced to say.

“The ‘under God’ is far less important to me than the entire sense that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance is just plain wrong,” Michigan Atheists director Arlene Marie told South Bend Tribune. “It is divisive and there are many reasons why parents would not want their children to say the Pledge of Allegiance.”

Marie explained that many of the children would be too young to understand what taking a pledge means, and some religions like Jehovah’s Witnesses forbid followers from citing pledges.

“Many children in our public schools are not even citizens of this country,” she added.

Trinity College professor Barry Kosmin estimates that as many as 25 percent of young people in the U.S. do not have a specific faith.

Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy wrote the Pledge in 1892 as a part of a campaign to sell flags to schools. The words “under God” were added by Congress 1954 because President Dwight Eisenhower perceived a threat from secular Communism.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that forcing students to cite the pledge was unconstitutional unless parents were given the opportunity to have the final say on whether their child participates.

“If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein,” Justice Robert Jackson wrote for the majority.

“We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.”

To address those concerns, members of a state Senate committee added language to the Michigan legislation that would allow parents to opt out.

Republican state Sens. Rick Jones, Patrick Colbeck, Michael Green, Tonya Schuitmaker, Howard Walker, Goeffrey Hansen, Jack Brandenburg, and John Pappageorge are co-sponsoring the bill.

[Elok]

I think it's a cultural thing. In some cultures, the nationalistic indoctrination of schoolchildren is considered distasteful.

I think people in other countries vastly overestimate the pledge's efficacy as a tool of indoctrination. We're taught it before we even have the capacity to properly understand what it means (what five year old knows what it means to "pledge allegiance," or what a republic is?), and by the time we do have that capacity we've been reciting it for so long that it no longer requires any conscious thought to chant it, so we don't think about it. We might as well be rattling off a fragment of Dostoevsky.

[Al B. Sure!]

Oh such a scary concept! Citizens pledging allegiance to their country!

[Elok]

Don't get me wrong, the Pledge has no particularly good reason to exist--added up, it probably wastes something like four hours of school time every year. If you really wanted to "indoctrinate" children, you'd be better off just giving them a week of forty-five minute classes on why America is awesome every year. Much more effective than having them blather loyalty pledges they don't pay attention to themselves.

[Aeson]

I think you underestimate the power of repetition of actions/influences at early ages.

[Asher]

Oh such a scary concept! Citizens pledging allegiance to their country!

It actually is. When it's forced upon them (either by social pressure or legal), it's a form of indoctrination. Not to Godwinise this thread, but look into Nazi Germany.

There's a reason Europe and most of the modern world is wary of hyper nationalism.

[Felch]

"I will to my republic be true and faithful, and love all which it loves and shun all which it shuns."

That pledge would kick ass and teach kids about CIV.

[Elok]

I think you underestimate the power of repetition of actions/influences at early ages.

To what extent do you think a five-year-old understands the words "pledge," "allegiance" "republic," "nation," "indivisible," and "liberty"? Or the broader concepts of what it means to pledge loyalty, the idea of the flag representing America, the ideals of Republican government, a nation being under God...now, a kid may be influenced by the people who make him recite the Pledge. But by the Pledge itself? Not bloody likely. It's meaningless sludge until you get a good deal older, and by that time it's recited by pure rote and you mostly use the opportunity to check out the girls in your class for thirty seconds or so. At least, that's all I used it for. Pick a seat opposite the flag and every booty in the room is on display. Sadly, the girls at my high school weren't that attractive.

But I digress. My point is, if you spoke with any of the kids from my high school, you would find very few of them were more fervently patriotic or jingoistic than their equivalents from Sweden. You would achieve different results in Kansas or Oklahoma, I imagine, but that's because the whole surrounding culture is different.

[Hauldren Collider]

"I will to my republic be true and faithful, and love all which it loves and shun all which it shuns."

That pledge would kick ass and teach kids about CIV.

Which republic are you talking about, our Union or Maryland?

[Asher]

Elok, you need to do some basic research into developmental psychology before continuing this discussion.

The point of repetition is to embed into the subconscious. They may not fully understand what it means at the time, but it's proven to significantly impact the thought process and belief system of people as they age. This is precisely why a child is far more likely to be religious if their parent is...

Stuff like the Pledge plant a seed of fervent nationalism ("patriotism") in Americans that lead to their arrogance and overconfidence in their own country and belief system.

[Felch]

Which republic are you talking about, our Union or Maryland?

Well that's the Union. In Maryland we would pledge to serve Lord Cecil Calvert. Democracy is a crass invention of the Parliamentarian mob.

[Hauldren Collider]

Elok, you need to do some basic research into developmental psychology before continuing this discussion.

The point of repetition is to embed into the subconscious. They may not fully understand what it means at the time, but it's proven to significantly impact the thought process and belief system of people as they age. This is precisely why a child is far more likely to be religious if their parent is...

Stuff like the Pledge plant a seed of fervent nationalism ("patriotism") in Americans that lead to their arrogance and overconfidence in their own country and belief system.

I don't think the pledge is what makes us patriotic.

[Asher]

I don't think the pledge is what makes us patriotic.

Here's a quiz for you -- what logical fallacy are you using here?

The pledge is one of many things that instill a sense of patriotism. It is not the only thing.