How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[Elok]

Not significant ones, no. Certainly not ones native to the pledge itself, as opposed to the symbolic value it's assigned, or the teacher's harangue about it.

[Asher]

I've already read plenty of DevPsych--my mother is a psych professor, she's run me through the basics enough times that I know you're talking out your arse. There are various theories dealing with how a child's mind develops, but none say that rote repetition of what is, in effect, a set of meaningless phrases, once a day for roughly thirty seconds, will have a meaningful impact on a child's life or thought processes. You're spouting nonsense, and being patronizing to boot.

In my dev psych course and textbook, the pledge of allegiance was specifically cited as an example of societal indoctrination. What I'm saying is also intuitively obvious to any reasonably intelligent person.

If your mother genuinely teaches that repetition of core values and beliefs has no impact on a person's development, I'd like to know which school she teaches at so I can write the dean a letter.

[Asher]

Not significant ones, no.

I mean no offense, Elok, but that is a tremendously stupid thing to think.

Ask yourself this --why is the Pledge encouraged by patriots if it has no value in instilling the values of American patriotism? Why do these same patriots keep trying to force kids in school to keep reciting it if it does nothing?

[Aeson]

Certainly not ones native to the pledge itself, as opposed to the symbolic value it's assigned, or the teacher's harangue about it.

It's all part of having the pledge in the classroom. You can't divorce the meaning that the pledge has been given from the pledge itself and say the pledge has no meaning because of it. Otherwise you've just proven that language is meaningless, because we had to be taught the symbolic value of words.

The actual repetition is where all that symbolic value you're talking about get's hammered away at over and over again day after day. Affirmations can be powerful towards shaping psyches, group affirmations even moreso, ritualistic and repetitive chants in group formation even moreso.

[Elok]

She doesn't teach that it has no impact, she refrains from teaching that it has an impact, because standard models of child development don't concern themselves with rote recitation of what amounts to gibberish. They tend to focus more on stages in a child's life and the way they form their personalities. Not having read your textbook, I can't comment, but it seems that either you didn't understand it correctly or the author was talking out his arse as well. She's had her share of ridiculous textbooks making ridiculous assertions.

Wait, "repetition of core values and beliefs?" Is that what you call a mindless slurring of syllables once a weekday? In any case, suppose I were required to recite once a day, from the ages of five to twelve, Hamlet's famous soliloquy. I would be told at the very beginning, when I was too young to really understand any explanation because I lacked the life experiences to process existential angst, what the hell he was talking about. From then on I'd just be blathering without thinking about it. What effect, if any, would this have on me by the time I turned thirteen, the approximate age when I could both relate to Hamlet and reject received values?

[Asher]

I'm actually pretty amused, but not terribly surprised, that you apparently do not grasp rather intuitive aspects of human psychology.

[Elok]

I mean no offense, Elok, but that is a tremendously stupid thing to think.

Ask yourself this --why is the Pledge encouraged by patriots if it has no value in instilling the values of American patriotism? Why do these same patriots keep trying to force kids in school to keep reciting it if it does nothing?

Why do many of the same people push for abstinence-only sex ed when that's been pretty well proven to accomplish nothing? The same answers apply here: cheap political posturing, willful ignorance, the desire to continue a tradition even when it no longer makes sense (or indeed never did).

[Elok]

I'm actually pretty amused, but not terribly surprised, that you apparently do not grasp rather intuitive aspects of human psychology.

Mwahaha, Internet Man, you are feeble and week and no match for my awesome smartness. Rather than actually say something, I will talk about how stupid you are until you get annoyed enough to quit or stoop to the same level!

[Aeson]

Is that what you call a mindless slurring of syllables once a weekday?

Pretending that the pledge is only a "mindless slurry of details" is rather ignorant.

[Kidlicious]

To be fair the pledge is PART of social indoctrination. Social indoctrination takes place in the unconscious mind. It is communicated unconsciously by authorities. Removing the pledge wont do a thing to prevent it.

[Felch]

I don't recall the Pledge affecting any of my peers. Most people just mumbled their way through it, or were silent. Maybe it had an effect, but without a control group, it's impossible to test that hypothesis.

[giblets]

I mean no offense, Elok, but that is a tremendously stupid thing to think.

Ask yourself this --why is the Pledge encouraged by patriots if it has no value in instilling the values of American patriotism? Why do these same patriots keep trying to force kids in school to keep reciting it if it does nothing?

Maybe patriots encourage it because they're tremendously stupid and know **** all about human psychology.

[Asher]

Mwahaha, Internet Man, you are feeble and week and no match for my awesome smartness. Rather than actually say something, I will talk about how stupid you are until you get annoyed enough to quit or stoop to the same level!

I've said many things here with content and thought. On the other hand, your argument is "my mom is a psych prof and kids don't understand all of the words, therefore it has zero impact on their development".

Gag.

[Asher]

Little known fact: the original Pledge of Allegiance required the hands to be in a...slightly different position than we see now.

Hitler co-opted it when he adopted the practice in Nazi Germany.


(1899)





And no, this is not a troll or joke. I doubt most Americans know that. Suddenly once you add the hand motions, I bet most of you would see why it's creepy.

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side. Then, still standing, as the instruments strike a chord, all will sing AMERICA- "My Country, tis of Thee."

Source: The Youth's Companion, 65 (1892): 446-447

[Kidlicious]