How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[MikeH]

Possibly, but I hope I wouldn't claim that being expected to say "God Save the Queen" at a certain time amounts to "indoctrination." That's simply insulting, it implies we're complete dullards. If Aeson wants to think his brain works that way, he's welcome, but mine doesn't and neither does anyone's that I know.

Even the brightest minds can be indoctrinated by simple techniques. See The Third Wave classic experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave

[Elok]

Even the brightest minds can be indoctrinated by simple techniques. See The Third Wave classic experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave

You do realize that the pledge begins and ends with reciting 31 words, generally in a droning tone of voice while half-asleep and/or staring at a girl's back end? There's no attempt to form a community out of it, no banners or membership cards or keeping out non-members or anything mentioned on that Wiki page. Which is why the pledge, by itself, is thoroughly innocuous.

[Aeson]

Is Elok calling me a complete dullard?

[Lorizael]

More importantly, are you more of a complete dullard than you used to be?

[Aeson]

9000 brain cells more of one :P

[Elok]

Is Elok calling me a complete dullard?

No, I'm saying you called yourself such. If thirty-one words is enough to win your loyalty in any significant way, your brain is something of an easy lay. I wish to make perfectly clear that if you want to screw my mind, you have to at least buy it dinner first. None of this free-school-breakfast nonsense.

[Aeson]

You are misrepresenting what I said to call names. Sorry for treating this discussion as a mature one. Carry on.

[Elok]

Easy there, I'm just messing with you.

[Elok]

I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to offend you.

More seriously, I cannot draw any other conclusion from your own account than that you were "indoctrinated" by the community spirit as a whole. Your description of your feelings as you recited the pledge made it sound like it simply reinforced feelings that were already there. The events at the mental hospital happened under entirely different circumstances which cannot be compared--unless your schoolteachers routinely drugged you to the gills and made the pledge the central purpose of the school day instead of a way to spend half a minute at its start.

To suggest that the pledge by itself constitutes "indoctrination" is, to me, an absurdity. To say that the pledge can indoctrinate if you do a crap-ton of other stuff as well, is to attribute to the pledge far more power than it actually has. Like calling a toothpick a lethal weapon, insofar as stabbing a man with a toothpick and a knife and five bullets and a syringe full of H2SO4 will kill him.

[Aeson]

The pledge (and anthem) are actually the only two community spirit events that there were. It's not like I was the only kid who said the pledge with any enthusiasm. It's not like we exhibited that enthusiasm in our other daily activities.

As I said, it's very possible that the pledge doesn't have this effect anymore (or didn't in other situations). It's clearly the intent of the pledge to influence young minds and mold them into unthinking patriots. If they wanted thinking patriots they'd just convince you with arguments or the acts of the nation when you're old enough to reason. How well it achieves that intent is variable, but the intent in and of it itself is creepy.

There's a reason why nations promote symbols, very bold and usually geometric. There's a reason why rituals/traditions are so difficult to break. It's a form of control. There's a reason why psychologists use affirmations or even hypnotic states (to various degrees) to subtly implant ideas in the psyche, as well as group therapy to play off of our "tribal" instincts.

We like to think of ourselves as outside the influence of these things, but to a large extent, that is their influence. If we really examined these influences they lose some of their effect, it's when we accept the output as "our own" that they really have power.

[Elok]

The problem with this argument is that neither of us can prove our point, short of running an experiment wherein children recite the pledge daily for ten years or so under different circumstances. Let me just say that I disagree with you regarding the purpose of the pledge. I believe it exists only as an outward sign of conformity to the ideals of the group, whether you define that group as Ms. Henderson's English class or the entire United States. It is an ongoing affirmation, to encourage ongoing conformity.

When carefully examined, its words could be used for a lesson in civic pride, and if this examination were recurring the student could be encouraged to take on those attitudes. Also, extra emphasis can be placed on the importance of conformity by the community's attitudes towards the pledge. However, lacking such externals (which it certainly lacked for me), it is simply a set of words which the child cannot be bothered to think about; "one nation, under God, indivisible" lacks the insidious targeted appeal of "two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese..." The latter will have a kid lusting after a Big Mac, because he's learned that burgers taste good and the words appeal to that knowledge. The former, by contrast, appeals to a whole set of abstract concepts which the lower brain, without being taught about them and having an association firmly made, will not associate with anything at all. Monkeys don't believe in flags and republics, and children under twelve are barely capable of grasping their importance.

From what I know of conditioning in general, a single recitation each day seems woefully inadequate for that purpose, especially when unaccompanied by any reinforcement beyond "you're a bad person of some sort if you don't say it," which in any case is not always applied today. That may get a kid to feel he is a bad person for not saying it. But it will not induce him to identify with the words.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

What do you want them to do, rename their country? It would look kind of silly if the "united kingdom" wasn't a monarchy.

Did we mention that the whole "United Kingdom" concept is bollocks?

[Elok]

Did we mention that the whole "United Kingdom" concept is bollocks?

No, but I, at least, am listening.

[giblets]

The pledge (and anthem) are actually the only two community spirit events that there were. It's not like I was the only kid who said the pledge with any enthusiasm. It's not like we exhibited that enthusiasm in our other daily activities.

I've never heard of any kids being enthusiastic about the pledge of allegiance until you claimed you were.

[Aeson]

It is an ongoing affirmation, to encourage ongoing conformity.

We are generally agreed on what it is an attempt to do then.

The former, by contrast, appeals to a whole set of abstract concepts which the lower brain, without being taught about them and having an association firmly made, will not associate with anything at all. Monkeys don't believe in flags and republics, and children under twelve are barely capable of grasping their importance.

This is the heart of the matter as far as what potential it has for affecting the mindset of children. You think that because kids don't understand a concept, the words will not affect them.

The reality is that in cases where the kids do not understand the words, the words are being ingrained acceptingly into their mind in certain relationships. They don't understand the words themselves, but are taught the relationship. (Learning language is essentially the same thing. The associations eventually fill in the gaps in the meanings.) USA<->Flag<->Freedom<->Allegiance. This is being ingrained, sometimes before the reality of the meanings of these words are even known.

From what I know of conditioning in general, a single recitation each day seems woefully inadequate for that purpose, especially when unaccompanied by any reinforcement beyond "you're a bad person of some sort if you don't say it," which in any case is not always applied today. That may get a kid to feel he is a bad person for not saying it. But it will not induce him to identify with the words.

Affirmations are almost always just a single recitation a day.

As with any habit, consistency (not necessarily frequency) is key.

And yes, the group aspect of it increases the potential for influence, positive and negative. (To be clear, not good and bad, just the form of feedback.)