How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[Elok]

Elok,

If when your kid is 4-5, you took your kid to a daycare or kindergarten and walked in one day to see the kids all lined up, facing some icon, and repeating a mantra in unison... would you leave your kid in that daycare? (Try to dissociate the thought from any specific good or bad mantra/symbol if possible...)

You have a point, but my primary objection there would be based on imagining things beyond the mantra itself--ie, whatever they were droning the chant at, I would be concerned that they taught the kids something else about it beyond the silly chant itself.

[Kidlicious]

The school is going to try to teach your kid stupid things. Just tell them school is stupid.

[MikeH]

In addition to Asher I have heard first hand accounts from 3 Americans about being 'forced' to say the pledge. Now whether this was literal forcing, or such intense peer pressure and pressure from teachers and other parents, is mostly irrelevant. I haven't really met that many Americans in the flesh, so that is quite a high proportion.

Every time it comes up, a whole bunch of Americans online seem to say, "well I was never forced, but I said it anyway" or some such... well possibly some schools are slightly different to some others? There is TONS of evidence to show that in plenty of schools kids are bullied into participating. Asher has shown plenty of evidence in this thread.

From a non-American point of view it is extremely weird and creepy. That said, if we'd been forced to pledge allegiance to the Queen or something when I was at school I'd definitely have been one of the people who thought it was weird, creepy and wrong, but I would definitely not have made a stand and not said it or not stood up, I'd have mouthed along or something. Much like HC not saying the God bit.

I know there are a lot of people who find it weird and creepy in the US, but who aren't prepared to make a stand 'cause of the reaction they'd get.

So for those who don't think it's weird and creepy, well I guess the indoctrination worked.

[Elok]

Or else we simply became accustomed to it, like pretty much everything we do repeatedly over a long time. When something becomes boring and routine, does that count as indoctrination?

As I've said repeatedly, if students are bullied into saying it in one location or another, that's just a manifestation of the general attitude in that community. Focusing on the pledge as somehow the source of the problem is missing the forest for one mediocre tree.

[Asher]

Elok -- no.
As you've said, you just don't know any better. You're accustomed to it. It's really creepy to anyone with a clear mind.

[MikeH]

If something creepy and weird becomes boring and routine, I'd say arguably yes that is indoctrination complete.

There seems to be a general view from a bunch of posters on here that kids don't get bullied into saying it. I think that's not true, I think it's relatively common for kids to be bullied into reciting the pledge as we've seen earlier in the thread. And yes, it's the general attitude of the community which is a problem but the community in question is large areas of the US.

If it's no big deal, why not just scrap it?

[Elok]

We've had this argument before. I personally wouldn't care if it got the axe--I'm so indoctrinated that I really don't care if it stays or goes. It probably won't be axed for another twenty years or so, and in the meantime there's much more important stuff on our plate. Which, to be fair, we won't attend to either.

[Elok]

Really, if the Royals are just a daft anachronism with no power except that of generating scandals, why don't you get rid of them? Are they a tabloid subsidy?

[MikeH]

Yes, I am in favour of getting rid of them.

[Elok]

Yes, but your society retains them, even though they've performed no meaningful function for how long now? It's a similar story with the pledge, I think.

[MikeH]

If everyone had just said "Yeah, it's a crap anachronism, we all agree it should go" this thread would have died pages ago.

[giblets]

What do you want them to do, rename their country? It would look kind of silly if the "united kingdom" wasn't a monarchy.

[DinoDoc]

If everyone had just said "Yeah, it's a crap anachronism, we all agree it should go" this thread would have died pages ago.

Considering the fact that the thread was about two obscure people to begin with, I doubt that.

[Elok]

No, because it's hard not to bristle when ignorant foreigners come in, criticize your customs and make absurd claims about them based on anecdotal evidence. Even if the customs in question are, in fact, stupid and pointless (I wouldn't call the pledge an anachronism per se; that would imply that there was, at some point in history, a genuine reason for saying it). For example, if I started yammering about how the Queen, or the state-allied Anglican church, just shows how you Brits have an unhealthy and stupid reverence for authority or something along those lines, I imagine you'd give a reply along the same lines I did: "no, a good number of us don't care for X, its cultural relevance is basically nil, and we don't instantly all become dullards and slaves just by supporting a parasite class."

XPost

[MikeH]

Considering the fact that the thread was about two obscure people to begin with, I doubt that.

AKA 2 of the most famous athletes in the world.

Edit: Evidence

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/08/01/more-popular-than-god-ronaldo-messi-federer-and-kobe-but-not-beckham-020802/