Children are little ****bags who should be used for baynet practice.

[David Floyd]

By the way, I take it from your silence on the subject that you have conceded that priests are indeed subject to the law?

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't you think that sheds some doubt on your initial point/implication that sex is better without contraception?

When you've confirmed that you prefer sex without a condom? Hardly. I should be able to rely on your experience, no?

[Ben Kenobi]

Then describe the feeling you get after riding to the top and looking out over Paris.

City or Hilton.

Exhilerating but flat.

[David Floyd]

When you've confirmed that you prefer sex without a condom? Hardly. I should be able to rely on your experience, no?

But only when another form of contraception is involved. I have stated repeatedly that sex with a condom is far superior than sex with no contraception and thus the much greater risk of children.

[loinburger]

Yes, I do, and I don't even have to rely on my experience, you yourselves have said the same.

You all have said that you do not want children, but if I do, why wouldn't I find sex without contraception better?

What other activities do you refrain from unless they can be engaged in according to some abstract ideal? Do you only drive cars that are Perfect Cars? Do you only ride roller coasters that are Perfect Roller Coasters? Do you only eat food that is Perfect Food? Do you only date women who are Perfect Women?

Why should your conclusion (erroneous or otherwise) that you would prefer sex for the purposes of procreation more than sex without the purpose of procreation lead you to conclude that you should only have sex for the purposes of procreation? More to the point, why would this lead you to conclude that everybody should only have sex for the purposes of procreation?

Are you arguing that logic does not provide accurate conclusions without having to personally test them?

How the hell is logic going to help you know the taste of food or the sound of music? "Logically, I don't like cantaloupe." "What do you mean, 'logically'?" "A book I read says that I won't like cantaloupe, hence, I don't like cantaloupe."

Please explain how you logically deduce whether you like the taste of food without tasting it or the sound of music without listening to it.

[Flubber]

You all have said that you do not want children, but if I do, why wouldn't I find sex without contraception better?



?

Ben -- you are thinking of sex as a spiritual baby-making/ meaning of life experience-- so for you sex without contraception is best since it ties into all your various beliefs

For DF and others, better sex is mainly about what is most pleasurable and safest both from a contraception and STD perspective. Sex without a condom feels better than sex with from a pure sensation point of view-- I think most would concede this-- But the "best sex" overall for some may be with a condom if they are balancing their other concerns

[loinburger]

If I don't know my partner very well then sex with a condom is more pleasurable because a. I don't need to worry if she's really on the pill or not, and b. I don't need to worry about whether she has the clap or something worse. Most of my partners have been sufficiently long term that this wasn't a concern though.

[Ben Kenobi]

What other activities do you refrain from unless they can be engaged in according to some abstract ideal?

That's a good question. I think we all engage in activities dictated by an abstract ideal called happiness.

Do you only drive cars that are Perfect Cars? Do you only ride roller coasters that are Perfect Roller Coasters? Do you only eat food that is Perfect Food? Do you only date women who are Perfect Women?

I don't require my car to do anything more for me then to get me to where I'm going. Now maybe you have higher ideals for your vehicle, but that's just me. Same with rollercoasters. Food, same way. I'm not picky about what I eat.

Now women is something else altogether. Yes, I will date someone that I think is the perfect woman.

Why should your conclusion (erroneous or otherwise) that you would prefer sex for the purposes of procreation more than sex without the purpose of procreation lead you to conclude that you should only have sex for the purposes of procreation?

Where have I concluded that I should only have sex for the purposes of procreation. I've been arguing that I want the best sex out there that I can get, and I can't get that with a bag over my ****.

More to the point, why would this lead you to conclude that everybody should only have sex for the purposes of procreation?

Some people don't like Filet Mignon, or don't want the costs associated with Filet Mignon. That's fine with me if that's what they want. Where did I argue that everyone ought to be like Kenobi? All I am arguing is that all else being equal sex without contraception is better than sex with contraception.

How the hell is logic going to help you know the taste of food or the sound of music? "Logically, I don't like cantaloupe." "What do you mean, 'logically'?" "A book I read says that I won't like cantaloupe, hence, I don't like cantaloupe."

Are you suggesting the fact that both you and david in your extensive field testing would not provide information that I can use? I think it's pretty clear. Sex without a condom is better, and both of you say this is so.

Please explain how you logically deduce whether you like the taste of food without tasting it or the sound of music without listening to it.

A better example would be if you found cantelopes delicious and mangos disgusting. That would have an influence on me, if I'd never eaten either. Same with Death Metal and Gershwin.

[Ben Kenobi]

But the "best sex" overall for some may be with a condom if they are balancing their other concerns

Not arguing this. All I'm arguing, again, all else being considered equal when these factors do not come into play. David telling me that he finds X better than Y, gives me useful information when I know where he is coming from, since what he desires is not what I desire.

[loinburger]

Are you suggesting the fact that both you and david in your extensive field testing would not provide information that I can use? I think it's pretty clear. Sex without a condom is better, and both of you say this is so.

So based on our field testing, you wouldn't hesitate to have sex with a partner who was on the pill?

[Flubber]

Why should your conclusion (erroneous or otherwise) that you would prefer sex for the purposes of procreation more than sex without the purpose of procreation lead you to conclude that you should only have sex for the purposes of procreation? More to the point, why would this lead you to conclude that everybody should only have sex for the purposes of procreation?



.

Poor guy if he only has sex for the purpose of procreation-- With a woman with a somewhat regular cycle he could probably have sex for 2-3 days in a month and then if she gets preggers, he gets cut off. Then of course she doesn't want another child for a year or so. Does this mean if Ben ever finds a woman, and they both turn out to be fertile, he will have sex maybe thgree times every 3 years??

Ben -- if sex is only for procreation are you permitted pleasurable methods of enhancing things like oral sex? Would it be a sin if she "pleasured you thusly" past the point of no return on a particular occasion. So very very many fun sex acts . . . I think its a "sin" if you don't allow yourself the pleasures of the body that "God has provided". I can respect monogomy, even waiting until marriage if you want but hells bells at that point you should do anything and everything that both of you enjoy. If you do THAT (instead of some straitlaced churchified version of "proper sex") you will have way more fun, way more sex and are far more likely to get pregnant quicker since you are humping each other so frequently

[David Floyd]

More to the point, do you not agree that priests are subject to the law in the same way everyone else is?

[Flubber]

Where have I concluded that I should only have sex for the purposes of procreation. I've been arguing that I want the best sex out there that I can get, and I can't get that with a bag over my ****.



Some people don't like Filet Mignon, or don't want the costs associated with Filet Mignon. That's fine with me if that's what they want. Where did I argue that everyone ought to be like Kenobi? All I am arguing is that all else being equal sex without contraception is better than sex with contraception.



.

--

Contraception does not necessarily equal a condom-- My wife was on the pill for a while and their are other methods to have gangbusters condomless sex WITH CONTRACEPTION

[Ben Kenobi]

So based on our field testing, you wouldn't hesitate to have sex with a partner who was on the pill?

Good question. Let me ask you something, loinburger, if I wanted to know what sex on the pill was like, would I be asking you and david?

[Ben Kenobi]

More to the point, do you not agree that priests are subject to the law in the same way everyone else is?

No. I believe that perpetual house arrest is sufficient penalty if the priest chooses to stay a priest.