Why do 90% of black people vote for Democrats?

[Ben Kenobi]

THE SOUTH LOST, YOU ********! Of course they didn't ****ing prosper! The American revolution was successful, on the other hand. Jesus, you're stupid!

So you concede my point. Thank you. Had George III devastated the United States, as Lincoln did the south, we would not be making this argument. They simply did not see the Revolutionary War the same way that Lincoln saw the Civil War.

Many Americans, South and North, did not see things the way that Lincoln saw them either. But enough did, and Lincoln conducted the war accordingly.

Again, had Lincoln had as much love for the South as George III had for his subjects, we would not have seen 650 thousand Americans dead.

[giblets]

THE SOUTH LOST, YOU ********! Of course they didn't ****ing prosper! The American revolution was successful, on the other hand. Jesus, you're stupid!

Well, I'd say it was an improvement for blacks. Slaves really don't have much to lose, do they? And some southern states didn't really have that much fighting- there was no point in fighting over Texas, for example, since controlling the Mississippi river was enough.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, I'd say it was an improvement for blacks.

As compared to what they had in Britain both before and after?

Slaves really don't have much to lose, do they? And some southern states didn't really have that much fighting- there was no point in fighting over Texas, for example, since controlling the Mississippi river was enough.

Which is one of the reasons that Texas has done well since. The devastation didn't help anyone, least of all the North. What could have America done, had she simply let the South go? The South would have had to compete with the north on their own terms, and there would be nothing to stop escaped slaves from seeking sanctuary in the North. The North would have easily passed the same laws that were in Britain at the time, giving the South less incentive to keep their own system.

Instead, the south was devastated, the republicans repudiated, and a divided nation that was not 'undivided', until the 1920s and Coolidge.

[Felch]

George III "plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."

[Al B. Sure!]

and there would be nothing to stop escaped slaves from seeking sanctuary in the North.

There would be nothing to stop escaped slaves from seeking sanctuary in the North... did Ben really just say this?

[Al B. Sure!]

Wait, was it Ben that tried to make the argument before that slavery was a beneficial relationship like a contract or something?

[Ben Kenobi]

There would be nothing to stop escaped slaves from seeking sanctuary in the North... did Ben really just say this?

I was referring to the fugitive slave law where escaped slaves that did reach the north would be sent back, by law to the South. Not only would slaves in the south have the motivation to flee north, but they would also be full citizens under the law with the proper citizenship. They could not be sent back because they would be free the moment they stepped north.

I do not see how in a South that was let go, that slavery would be at all tenable. England would boycott them. The North would boycott them. They would not have access to the markets that they had in the united states.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wait, was it Ben that tried to make the argument before that slavery was a beneficial relationship like a contract or something?

No, not me. I don't believe that slavery was beneficial to the South. It was a millstone. The south would have been far stronger if they had abolished slavery voluntarily.

[Pax]

Ben,
You have no understanding of the american way of thinking. In fact, your comments are offensive.
From an early age, americans who don't know anything about the declaration of independence know the phrase life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. From that point on americans have fought to make those words really true. Also the idea that a state can secede from the union is treasonous to a real american. We believe that we are much stronger united than we are apart. "We should all hang together are we will surely hang apart." You may have read about this stuff in textbooks as a "Historian" but to real americans it's deeper than a text book. The points you make about King George letting the colonies go may be something you learned in Canadian schools but believe me americans don't see it that way. There are not very many governments/countries on the planet that are willing to let territories secede without a struggle and Great Britain was not one of them.
On Texas, the reason why texas has prospered is access to natural resources and a stable U.S. government.
You also don't realize that the south fired the first shot in the civil war. So it was the south that decided that blood must be shed. After the civil war the south was rebuilt because it is and was a part of the U.S. and the United States as a whole continued to prosper eventually becoming the #1 country in the world. I argue that the U.S. would not be as powerful if there was a USA and a CSA.
As an outsider from Canada your views are academic. As a black southerner, my views are personal. My ancestors were slaves and I would have had them free as soon as possible. You also have no idea of the black experience in America. Racism existed openly in the North and out west up until the 60s. So it stands to reason that if we would have waited to free the slaves we would have more racism in your alternative history than we do in the real history.
Also, There is today and was racism all over the british empire, including Britain. The racism varied by country under British rule. Your argument that we americans would have had equality on par with Britain is unprovable because British ruled countries all practice different levels and types of racism.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1666362.php/New-Zealand-justice-system-biased-research-and-politicians-say

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12700

http://www.hopesite.ca/remember/history/racism_canada_1.html

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Racism_in_the_United_Kingdom

[Pax]

Ben,
You seem to think you know what's best for the americans, irish and blacks.

[kentonio]

From an early age, americans who don't know anything about the declaration of independence know the phrase life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. From that point on americans have fought to make those words really true.

Hmm, for a long time that only really applied to wealthy white males however.

You may have read about this stuff in textbooks as a "Historian" but to real americans it's deeper than a text book. The points you make about King George letting the colonies go may be something you learned in Canadian schools but believe me americans don't see it that way.

He's not a historian and I'll bet you a hundred bucks he didn't read that in any textbook in Canada.

Also, There is today and was racism all over the british empire, including Britain.

Racism still exists today of course in Britain, but it's far less of an issue than it remains in America especially when it comes to blacks.

[Jon Miller]

Racism still exists today of course in Britain, but it's far less of an issue than it remains in America especially when it comes to blacks.

My impression is that a lot of europeans feel this way about europe/their country, but it isn't really true.

JM
(Maybe in Britain it really is true, I only spent a couple of days there and didn't *see anything*. But when I read about things I still get this impression. The only place I am pretty sure of my observation is for Sweden.)

(I am not claiming that racism isn't a problem in the US, I am claiming that racism plays a bigger role in most european countries than europeans like to acknowledge. And that in the US it is less of an issue than most non-americans realize. So my real disagreement with is the 'far less' part.)

[Aeson]

I find this somewhat ironic:

Visitors found this page by searching for: hauldren sds activist led 60s group

[kentonio]

My impression is that a lot of europeans feel this way about europe/their country, but it isn't really true.

JM
(Maybe in Britain it really is true, I only spent a couple of days there and didn't *see anything*. But when I read about things I still get this impression. The only place I am pretty sure of my observation is for Sweden.)

(I am not claiming that racism isn't a problem in the US, I am claiming that racism plays a bigger role in most european countries than europeans like to acknowledge. And that in the US it is less of an issue than most non-americans realize. So my real disagreement with is the 'far less' part.)

For a European watching American news and discussion, it's actually shocking how much of the dialogue is phased in racial terms. Things are by no means perfect here, but you have congressmen, senators and even presidential candidates spouting racist **** that would guarantee the death of their careers over here.

[Jon Miller]

For a European watching American news and discussion, it's actually shocking how much of the dialogue is phased in racial terms. Things are by no means perfect here, but you have congressmen, senators and even presidential candidates spouting racist **** that would guarantee the death of their careers over here.

If you live in america, or live in europe, I think that the experience is very similar.

It is sort of how american views the french politicians, for example. If a us politician behaved that way they would have a guaranteed death of their career.

It does not mean that the experience of women in france is much much worse than the experience of women in the US.

JM
(Note I am not saying that if you live in Texas and if you live in London the experience is similar.)