What If - the Spanish Aramada had succeded

[Al B. Sure!]

In Argentina till the 70s educated people spoke French and not English.

So where were you and Zoet when I was having an argument about this very topic? I asserted that English being the global language is primarily due to American, not Victorian British, influence, and the fact that English has only emerged as a global language since WW2 and the rise of American power is evidence supporting that. People learn English because of the influence of American, not British, culture.

[Egbert]

So where were you and Zoet when I was having an argument about this very topic? I asserted that English being the global language is primarily due to American, not Victorian British, influence, and the fact that English has only emerged as a global language since WW2 and the rise of American power is evidence supporting that. People learn English because of the influence of American, not British, culture.

Actually, English was spoken in lots of places, by lots of people, before WW2 and before your rise of American power. Yes Albie, the British spread English far and wide all by themselves.

[C0ckney]

in the late 16th century spain's army was extremely good and had a fearsome reputation, whereas england's was famously bad. a whole string of failed expeditions to france and interventions in the lowlands litter the history of the tudor monarchs. if the spanish invaded with a well equipped and professional army it would have been difficult for the english to resist effectively with their small land forces backed by local militia. people at the time knew this and were very worried about a spanish invasion.

[Al B. Sure!]

in the late 16th century spain's army was extremely good and had a fearsome reputation, whereas england's was famously bad. a whole string of failed expeditions to france and interventions in the lowlands litter the history of the tudor monarchs. if the spanish invaded with a well equipped and professional army it would have been difficult for the english to resist effectively with their small land forces backed by local militia. people at the time knew this and were very worried about a spanish invasion.

The logistics of an invasion don't seem feasible to me, at least not as the Spanish planned. And the English defeated the Spanish/Irish force at Kinsale in 1601, so I don't see how they wouldn't be able to beat back a Spanish force in England that would likely have had supply problems.

[Ben Kenobi]

To restore a deposed King? Mary had a significant body of support in England. The problem for Elizabeth is the same problem she always had. Philip actually had a stronger claim to the English throne than she did.

Philip of Spain - Isabella of Portugal - Manuel I King of Portugal - Beatrice Duchess of Viseu - Philippa of Lancaster - John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster - King Edward III

Elizabeth of England - Henry VIII King of England - Elizabeth of York - Edward IV King of England - Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York - Richard of York, 3rd Earl of Cambridge - Edmund of Langley 1st Duke of York - King Edward III

[Hauldren Collider]

Actually, English was spoken in lots of places, by lots of people, before WW2 and before your rise of American power. Yes Albie, the British spread English far and wide all by themselves.

Yes, but only to the places they conquered, for the most part.

[Egbert]

Yes, but only to the places they conquered, for the most part.

That was only about a quarter of the world. Trivial really.

[Al B. Sure!]

To restore a deposed King? Mary had a significant body of support in England. The problem for Elizabeth is the same problem she always had. Philip actually had a stronger claim to the English throne than she did.

Philip of Spain - Isabella of Portugal - Manuel I King of Portugal - Beatrice Duchess of Viseu - Philippa of Lancaster - John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster - King Edward III

Elizabeth of England - Henry VIII King of England - Elizabeth of York - Edward IV King of England - Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York - Richard of York, 3rd Earl of Cambridge - Edmund of Langley 1st Duke of York - King Edward III

Umm... Mary of Scotland was dead.


And Philip had no legitimate claim to the English throne. He married into the English house through Elizabeth's sister, "Bloody" Mary. Had they produced an heir, perhaps their heir would have had claim to England, but upon Queen Mary's death, Philip had no claim.

[Al B. Sure!]

And how the hell does the daughter of King Henry VIII have a weaker claim to the throne of England than a Habsburg king who was distantly related to Edward III through a series of women? Because Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn was illegitimate in Catholic eyes? Fortunately for Elizabeth, she (and England) were Protestant.

[Egbert]

And how the hell does the daughter of King Henry VIII have a weaker claim to the throne of England than a Habsburg king who was distantly related to Edward III through a series of women? Because Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn was illegitimate in Catholic eyes? Fortunately for Elizabeth, she (and England) were Protestant.

Henry annulled his marriage to Anne Boleyn thus rendering Elizabeth illegitimate and thus with no claim to the throne. (When he had Anne's head cut off). Henry later restored Elizabeth to the line of succession thus making her third in line to the throne. Immediately prior to Henry's death the order of succession was: Edward, Mary and then Elizabeth.

The legitimacy of Elizabeth's claim was restored (if it needed restoring in the first place).

[Al B. Sure!]

Henry annulled his marriage to Anne Boleyn thus rendering Elizabeth illegitimate and thus with no claim to the throne. (When he had Anne's head cut off). Henry later restored Elizabeth to the line of succession thus making her third in line to the throne. Immediately prior to Henry's death the order of succession was: Edward, Mary and then Elizabeth.

The legitimacy of Elizabeth's claim was restored (if it needed restoring in the first place).

And it trumps Philip II through a distant relation to Edward III and marriage to Elizabeth's sister, Mary, anyway.

What is Ben talking about Felipe Habsburg had a stronger claim to the English throne than Elizabeth?

[Ben Kenobi]

And Philip had no legitimate claim to the English throne. He married into the English house through Elizabeth's sister, "Bloody" Mary. Had they produced an heir, perhaps their heir would have had claim to England, but upon Queen Mary's death, Philip had no claim.

Philip's claim was legitimate, which is why Mary married him, and not someone else. He was a descendent of Edward III, as was Elizabeth. Neither one of them was a salic descendent, both relied upon descent from one of the female branches, but Elizabeth is from the junior brother, (Edmund of Langley), rather than the senior, (John of Gaunt).

[Ben Kenobi]

And how the hell does the daughter of King Henry VIII have a weaker claim to the throne of England than a Habsburg king who was distantly related to Edward III through a series of women? Because Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn was illegitimate in Catholic eyes? Fortunately for Elizabeth, she (and England) were Protestant.

One, Philip's line of descent is through John of Gaunt and Philippa of Lancaster. It had never been invalidated. Elizabeth had actually been written out of the secession altogether, not to mention Henry VII's own problems.

John of Gaunt is the senior brother to Edmund of Langley, so it's by no means an insignificant claim that his descent traces through there.

[Al B. Sure!]

It's doesn't matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Crown_Act_1543

The Third Succession Act of Henry VIII's reign was passed by the Parliament of England in July 1543, and returned both Mary and Elizabeth to the line of the succession behind Prince Edward.

Elizabeth's claim was not derived from a relation as distant as Edward III. She was the freaking daughter of King Henry VIII!


Maybe you were born in the wrong time, Ben, because Philip II apparently saw NONE of it your way. He was a King-consort.

After almost two years of childless marriage, Mary died in 1558 and Philip forfeited any rights to the English throne as he was entitled to exercise it only "for so long as the matrimony endureth"

That is why Philip attempted to wed Elizabeth following Mary's death.

[Ben Kenobi]

Elizabeth's claim was not derived from a relation as distant as Edward III. She was the freaking daughter of King Henry VIII!

Actually, yes it is. Which is why the line from Edmund Duke of Langley is so important. All the Stuart claims come from Henry VIII sister, and would be the basis for their claims, and for the claims of the current Hanoverian branch.

One woman, whom you've probably never heard of. The Tudors were a minor, overrated dead-end, but the most significant of them all is Henry's sister Margaret.