What If - the Spanish Aramada had succeded

[molly bloom]

And yet, as I pointed out, he was only King-Consort.

And Elizabeth's claim rested on her being descended from the divorced and executed wife of the son of a usurper, who had a very shady claim to the throne- which was why Henry VII faced several rebellions in his reign and why the Tudors faced numerous rebellions and were eager (much like James VI and I) to eradicate anyone else with a claim to the throne.
In any case, if his armies conquered the country, why on earth would Philip pay any attention to a previous agreement ?

Mary Tudor was the Head of State of England, NOT Philip.

I'm aware of that. I'm simply pointing out that in terms of genealogy, Philip was descended from one of the Royal houses of England.

If being a descendant of John of Gaunt mattered, don't you think he would have brought it up?

It was 'brought up' during the wedding ceremony- to stress Philip's links with England. Mary was also descended from John of Gaunt- through her mother and her mother's mother. Bear in mind that Henry VII's claim also was through Margaret Beaufort- another person descended from John of Gaunt.

Philip was not a legitimate claimant.

Not true- he had a claim, but agreed to defer it at the insistence of a hostile Protestant dominated English council. What's the old adage about possession and the law ?

And yet the Spanish couldn't even successfully invade or hold Kinsale, Ireland a few years later?

1601- almost two decades later, and hardly the same number of troops as there were for the Armada. C'mon, compare like with like !

I believe. I suspect by 1588, the majority of English had become Protestant

You can believe and suspect, but there were still enough influential Roman Catholics around to plot the death of James Stuart.

The English had quite a few German mercenaries.

Did they ? Where were these mercenaries ? You're clutching at straws. The English armed land forces throughout Elizabeth's reign were badly funded, badly led for the most part, badly equipped and ill-rewarded when they returned from Scotland or overseas. Their record in France and the Low Countries is not admirable- they couldnt even agree on joint operations with their allies, and their leaders wouldn't even follow Elizabeth's instructions.

Fast forward even just 50 years and Spain was a shadow of its former self.

Which assumes that the Armada wouldn't have succeeded. One of Philip's reasons for sending the Armada was Elizabeth's support for the Dutch rebels- remove the English support, and with safe bases in England, it makes the task of dealing with the Low Countries that much easier. As for Spain being a shadow of its former self, the English didn't have a professional army until the 1640s, and the advent of the New Model Army.

[Al B. Sure!]

1601- almost two decades later, and hardly the same number of troops as there were for the Armada. C'mon, compare like with like !

I wasn't aware 1601 is two decades after 1588. It's 13 years for those who can't count.

And it's like with like. Do you think the English had a sizable force in Southern Ireland?




Look, the whole landings would not have been possible as envisioned, for the reasons I stated repeatedly earlier. That is my argument.

[molly bloom]

I wasn't aware 1601 is two decades after 1588. It's 13 years for those who can't count

Didja notice 'almost' in that sentence ? What does 'almost' mean in Albert's English dictionary ? It means not quite two decades, just like 13 isn't quite 20- for those who can't read English.

And it's like with like. Do you think the English had a sizable force in Southern Ireland?

It's not comparing like with like- the commanders were entirely different, as were the sizes of the land forces involved. You're clutching at straws.

Look, the whole landings would not have been possible as envisioned, for the reasons I stated repeatedly earlier.

What contribution did the Dutch make to the defeat of the Armada ?

[Al B. Sure!]

15+ years is almost 20 years. 13 is over 10 years. Learn basic rounding.

What contribution did the Dutch make to the defeat of the Armada ?

I already explained the issue as to Dutch flyboats could ravage the defenseless troop transport barges in the shallow waters the Armada could not enter.

As for the defeat of the Armada, Justinus van Nassau led a Dutch fleet of Dutch ships that participated in the battle.

A quote from historian John L. Motley:

"Farther along the coast, invisible but known to be performing a most perilous and vital service, was a squadron of Dutch vessels of all sizes lining both the outer and inner of the sand-banks of the Flemish coasts and swarming in all the estuaries and inlets of that intricate and dangerous cruising-ground between Dunkirk and Texel. Those fleets of Holland and Zealand, numbering some one hundred and fifty galleons, sloops, and fly-boats, lay patiently blockading every possible egress from the ports in possession of the Duke of Parma, and longing to grapple with him as soon as his fleet of gunboats and hoys, packed with his Spanish and Italian veterans, should venture to set forth upon the sea for their long-meditated enterprise."

[Al B. Sure!]

The Dutch, in fact, captured the Spanish galleons San Mateo and San Felipe.

[molly bloom]

15+ years is almost 20 years. 13 is over 10 years. Learn basic rounding.

Grow up fercrissakes. Learn some basic history, like who was defeated at Kinsale.

I already explained the issue as to Dutch flyboats could ravage the defenseless troop transport barges in the shallow waters the Armada could not enter.

Could but didn't.

As for the defeat of the Armada, Justinus van Nassau led a Dutch fleet of 150 ships that participated in the battle.

Err, so they didn't actually engage any Spanish ships ? Got that.

[Al B. Sure!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_armada

Belligerents:
England
United Provinces

The Dutch were a reserve force that blockaded Dunkirk. And, like I said, they did capture two Spanish galleons.

How many times do I have to say.... the Dutch flyboats could destroy the troop barges that the Armada could not protect. If the Spanish fleet was victorious at sea, those Dutch ships were needed to prevent phase 2 of the Spanish plan which was to transport the troops of the Duke of Parma across the channel.

And that phase 2 was an impossibility. The Spanish plan was not feasible. They could not protect the troop barges.

[Al B. Sure!]

Grow up fercrissakes. Learn some basic history, like who was defeated at Kinsale.

Hey *******, tell me what history has a Spanish victory at Kinsale?

Could but didn't.

They didn't have to. Duh.

Err, so they didn't actually engage any Spanish ships ? Got that.

The Spanish lost 5 ships sunk or captured, 2 to the Dutch. It was the day after the main battle, though.

[Al B. Sure!]

12 miles from Flanders was the closest the Armada could approach. For that stretch of sea, the shallow Dutch flyboats could attack the transport barges carrying the Duke of Parma's men with impunity. The Spanish plan did not consider Dutch support for the English. Not only was Dutch support reciprocal as the English had been supporting the Dutch independence but an opportunity to take out thousands of Spanish soldiers off the coast of Flanders would have been appealing to the Dutch even without the Anglo-Dutch alliance.

And so, even a sea victory for the Spanish Armada would have meant nothing because the invasion of England could not be done.

[Al B. Sure!]

Really, how do you even respond the way you responded with this staring you in the face? Do you even read?

"Farther along the coast, invisible but known to be performing a most perilous and vital service, was a squadron of Dutch vessels of all sizes lining both the outer and inner of the sand-banks of the Flemish coasts and swarming in all the estuaries and inlets of that intricate and dangerous cruising-ground between Dunkirk and Texel. Those fleets of Holland and Zealand, numbering some one hundred and fifty galleons, sloops, and fly-boats, lay patiently blockading every possible egress from the ports in possession of the Duke of Parma, and longing to grapple with him as soon as his fleet of gunboats and hoys, packed with his Spanish and Italian veterans, should venture to set forth upon the sea for their long-meditated enterprise."

[giblets]

Yeah, I'm sure Albert understands the situation better than the 16th century Spanish military.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yeah, I'm sure Albert understands the situation better than the 16th century Spanish military.

It's not me. It's the written histories of historians that back me up here. And yes, they, and by extension, me, understand the situation better than the 16th century Spanish military. We have the benefit of hindsight and knowing what the English and Dutch plans and capabilities were.


Really, you are a dumbass, gribbler. OF COURSE we know better than they did!

Maybe on some historical analysis, the picture is incomplete enough that modern-day historians wouldn't be more knowledgeable than people at the time, but something like this, how the hell would we NOT know better than them?

Or do you think the Spanish had perfect intel on the English and Dutch and weren't overestimating what they the Spanish were capable of? They lost, didn't they?


You really say some idiotic stuff. I'd be embarrassed if I were you.

[BlackCat]

It's not me. It's the written histories of historians that back me up here. And yes, they, and by extension, me, understand the situation better than the 16th century Spanish military. We have the benefit of hindsight and knowing what the English and Dutch plans and capabilities were.


Really, you are a dumbass, gribbler. OF COURSE we know better than they did!

Maybe on some historical analysis, the picture is incomplete enough that modern-day historians wouldn't be more knowledgeable than people at the time, but something like this, how the hell would we NOT know better than them?

Or do you think the Spanish had perfect intel on the English and Dutch and weren't overestimating what they the Spanish were capable of? They lost, didn't they?


You really say some idiotic stuff. I'd be embarrassed if I were you.

I'm really glad that you managed to edit in the last sentence since you obviously lives perfectly up to that.

You correctly claim that the spanish couldn't have the knowledge we have and couldn't act as they had - still you claim that the dutch and brits acts like they had perfect (ie. as we have) knowledge and acted according to a master plan. That is plain stupid.

Btw, those two spanish ships the dutch took was more comparable to wreck robbery since they both took water and ran aground - not a very big feat of the almighty dutch navy.

[Al B. Sure!]

The English and Dutch knew what was coming. They knew the Duke of Parma had an army in Flanders awaiting transport to England. The Duke of Parma tried to throw off the Dutch by sending mis-intelligence that he was preparing an invasion of the Netherlands but they knew what the real plan was, as evidenced by the fact that the Dutch ships set out to blockade the Duke. The Dutch also knew that those big Spanish Armada ships couldn't get close to shore whereas the low Dutch flyboats could, which meant the Duke's barges could be attacked with impunity.

The English and Dutch knew their waters, had a pretty good assessment of the Spanish plan (it wasn't like Philip didn't broadcast his intentions of invading England in advance), and acted on it perfectly. They won.


Really, google What if the armada succeeded and take a look at some alternative history forums. Between what I've read people say there and what I've read from legitimate sources, the historical consensus appears to be that the Spanish plan was fundamentally flawed and they would not have been able to invade England.

[BlackCat]

"The british attack with burning ships is a utter failure due to wrongful calculations. Still at full strength and with good wind conditions the main ships manage to encircle and fight down large numbers of the british fleet in a number of battles - at the same time the smaller vessels of the armada attack the dutch blocade with great succes. After the defeat of the british and dutch navies, the invasion army ar brought safely to the british shores where they make landfall."

Al, your problem is that you are so stuck up in what really happened and can't fathom other results.