Lessons from the Bible

[giblets]

In the book of Joshua there's a story about a prostitute who helps the Israelites spy on her city, Jericho. She lives in a house that is part of the city wall (Joshua 2:15). To reward her they agree to spare her life when they take the city. What she must do is stay inside her house with her family. Of course, the Israelites take the city by marching in circles around the city walls until Yahweh decides to make the walls collapse. When they sack the city, the spies lead the prostitute and her family away from the city before the Israelites burn it. Can you find the plot hole?

[Al B. Sure!]

Exodus 4:21
21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 10:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Exodus 11:10
10And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
4And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Exodus 14:8
8And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

Exodus 14:17
17And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

[Jon Miller]

At the same time, the Bible said that Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Additionally, as already stated, the Bible is written from the human POV. What God is feeling is understood by reading the stories or as interpreted by His priests or His prophets. The only actual words of God are the 10 commandments (maybe).

This is one of the central differences between Islam and Christianity (the Quran contains the actual words of God).

JM

[Jon Miller]

8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

8:32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

9:34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

It is important to read and think about the story. Not cite versus.

Note that I am not happy about how 'fundamentalists' treat the Bible either.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

I was taught, as a Catholic, that the Old Testament is written with an incomplete understanding of God. The New Testament has a more lenient portrayal, because the people writing it have a better understanding of God's will. It's still not perfect, since human beings aren't perfect, but it's better than the old understanding.

The Old Testament is best written as a progression. The people of Israel learn more and more about God's nature as they get to know Him better. In the beginning (Genesis) they have a very incomplete understanding and at times God reveals himself in their ways, so they can comprehend. And yes, human beings wrote the books. May have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was still human hands, which different reasons for writing the books and with human biases and exaggerations (please, no way that many people were in the Holy Land at the time).

[Jon Miller]

In the book of Joshua there's a story about a prostitute who helps the Israelites spy on her city, Jericho. She lives in a house that is part of the city wall (Joshua 2:15). To reward her they agree to spare her life when they take the city. What she must do is stay inside her house with her family. Of course, the Israelites take the city by marching in circles around the city walls until Yahweh decides to make the walls collapse. When they sack the city, the spies lead the prostitute and her family away from the city before the Israelites burn it. Can you find the plot hole?

When it says the walls fell down, does it say that all the walls in the entire city, every last one of them, fell so that not one stone was upon another/etc/etc/etc? Even if it did, might that be 'poetic license?'

The story tellers aren't stupid.

JM

[Wezil]

It could well have been a vague passage. The bible is pretty vague on many things.

Dinosaurs.

[giblets]

When it says the walls fell down, does it say that all the walls in the entire city, every last one of them, fell so that not one stone was upon another/etc/etc/etc?

JM

This is why I'm not going after Greek myths... nobody would bother to defend them and provide feedback.

[Jon Miller]

I would expect greek stories to make sense too...

JM

[giblets]

[27]Manas'seh did not drive out the inhabitants of Beth-she'an and its villages, or Ta'a-nach and its villages, or the inhabitants of Dor and its villages, or the inhabitants of Ibleam and its villages, or the inhabitants of Megid'do and its villages; but the Canaanites persisted in dwelling in that land.
[28] When Israel grew strong, they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but did not utterly drive them out.
[29]And E'phraim did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwelt in Gezer among them.
[30]Zeb'ulun did not drive out the inhabitants of Kitron, or the inhabitants of Na'halol; but the Canaanites dwelt among them, and became subject to forced labor.
[31]Asher did not drive out the inhabitants of Acco, or the inhabitants of Sidon, or of Ahlab, or of Achzib, or of Helbah, or of Aphik, or of Rehob;
[32] but the Asherites dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; for they did not drive them out.
[33]Naph'tali did not drive out the inhabitants of Beth-she'mesh, or the inhabitants of Beth-anath, but dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; nevertheless the inhabitants of Beth-she'mesh and of Beth-anath became subject to forced labor for them.
[34]The Amorites pressed the Danites back into the hill country, for they did not allow them to come down to the plain;
[35] the Amorites persisted in dwelling in Har-heres, in Ai'jalon, and in Sha-al'bim, but the hand of the house of Joseph rested heavily upon them, and they became subject to forced labor.
[36] And the border of the Amorites ran from the ascent of Akrab'bim, from Sela and upward.

[1]Now the angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up from Egypt, and brought you into the land which I swore to give to your fathers. I said, `I will never break my covenant with you,
[2] and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars.' But you have not obeyed my command. What is this you have done?
[3] So now I say, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall become adversaries to you, and their gods shall be a snare to you."
[4] When the angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the people of Israel, the people lifted up their voices and wept.
[5] And they called the name of that place Bochim; and they sacrificed there to the LORD.

Judges 1:27-36 & Judges 2:1-5

Yahweh is upset about their disobedience. The text seems to imply that Yahweh is upset about the Israelites enslaving their enemies instead of killing them. Unlike the other parts of judges where Yahweh is abandoned by the Israelites for other gods, in this instance Yahweh abandons them because they fail to fulfill his orders of complete ethnic cleansing. But I'm guessing the people writing this somehow didn't understand God properly?

[Jon Miller]

One thing to remember about this time, it was a kill or be killed situation. War is that way. It isn't pretty. We generally have a lot more solutions now, than people did then. They even had more solutions in the time of the kings (and God's directions changed).

What happened because of living with the people in the land?

Israel followed other gods. Repeatedly. They got their butt kicked and enslaved, repeatedly (until David, really).

So yeah, they were suppose to drive the peoples in the land out. Because they were developed enough spiritually to have the other peoples in the land with them and not start following other Gods.

You don't need to pick that part of the story, you can look at the whole conquest of canaan for this theme.

Basically:
God knew that if they lived with the canaanites that they would follow other gods. He told Israel to not compromise in the war. Israel did, which would cause them to follow other gods, out of greed. Why shouldn't God be upset at them?

Note what is said:
`I will never break my covenant with you, [2] and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars.'

Worshipping God is a crucial part of this story, of what we are suppose to learn from this story.

It is obviously not 'genocide is ok', as that goes against God's directions at other times. Just like 'sacrifice your son' is not what we are suppose to learn from Abraham and Isaac and isn't what we are suppose to learn from that story, and is against God's directions at other times.

Really understanding God is difficult. Understanding and learning about God takes thought.

It's important to look at the whole story. The whole story of Israel coming into the canaan. The whole story of Israel. The whole story of salvation. Looking at just a little piece and you won't understand it.

JM

[Hauldren Collider]

yawn, another religion troll thread. gribbler, when will you learn that arguing about these things is not worth your time or energy? The entire stated point of religion these days is the ability to engage in doublethink ("faith"). By definition you cannot bring people over to your side.

[Al B. Sure!]

yawn, another religion troll thread. gribbler, when will you learn that arguing about these things is not worth your time or energy? The entire stated point of religion these days is the ability to engage in doublethink ("faith"). By definition you cannot bring people over to your side.

Yeah it gets nowhere. Jon Miller and Imran and others are frankly not real Christians. They twist and contort Scripture to fit their own sensibilities when the Word is supposed to be supreme. But we've been over and over this before.

Somehow them saying everything's about context and interpretation in response doesn't cause them to realize that it's all bunk then.

Either you take the Word as it is given (as the Bible freaking tells you to on NUMEROUS occasions) or you are not a Christian.

[giblets]

JM, are you saying the ends justify the means? Genocide was acceptable because it would have kept them faithful to God?

[Hauldren Collider]

gribbler, his faith is predicated on the insistence that it is important to be faithful. You cannot convince people they are wrong when they believe their wrongness is what makes them right.