Lessons from the Bible

[Imran Siddiqui]

I laugh at Jon Miller and Imran. What denominations are you guys? Maybe you need to talk to some of your fellow Protestants who most definitely don't see things the way you do.

I appreciate the arrogance of a non-Christian telling Christians what they must believe. There are many Protestants and even Evangelicals who believe as Jon and I believe. Look up "The Emergent Church" when you get a chance. And to be honest, most Mainstream Protestant denominations are fairly liberal anyways (one of my friends who is a Lutheran, and was a Lutheran Pastor, was amused when someone said universalism is a shocking viewpoint among Christians - I had to inform him that it is among conservative evanglicals).

[Al B. Sure!]

I appreciate the arrogance of a non-Christian telling Christians what they must believe. There are many Protestants and even Evangelicals who believe as Jon and I believe. Look up "The Emergent Church" when you get a chance. And to be honest, most Mainstream Protestant denominations are fairly liberal anyways (one of my friends who is a Lutheran, and was a Lutheran Pastor, was amused when someone said universalism is a shocking viewpoint among Christians - I had to inform him that it is among conservative evanglicals).

you're delusional, Imran. All you're saying is that those people just force a square block into a round hole... come up with their own sensibilities and then bend over backwards with interpretation and context to fit their beliefs into something pre-existing called Christianity. They nor you are real Protestant Christians. They're just that way because real Christianity/Judaism is intolerant, ignorant, stupid **** and you're trying to find some way to deal with it. Whatever. I'm done.

Let's see how long this Christian thing lasts with you, anyway.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I appreciate the arrogance of a non-Christian telling Christians what they must believe.

Furthermore, it is quite amusing considering that you seem to equate Evangelicalism with Protestanism, as if the Mainline Denominations don't even exist. FWIW, the denominations that have allowed for homosexual pastors are the Mainline Protestant ones, including *gasp* the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA).

Furthermore if literalism was the proper way to go, you'd see the Jews engaged in it, since they wrote the books we are discussing here.

Basically, you are blind to reality as well as to God.

[Jon Miller]

Thanks for the notes on the Emergent Church, Imran. I find it interesting.

JM
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church )

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jon, for more on the Emergent Church, I like reading Brian McLaren (in the middle of reading "A New Kind of Christianity" at present).

[Wezil]

I laugh at Jon Miller and Imran. What denominations are you guys? Maybe you need to talk to some of your fellow Protestants who most definitely don't see things the way you do.

That is the joy of religion. There's a flavour for everyone and they are all following gods will.

[giblets]

[5]And the Philistines mustered to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and troops like the sand on the seashore in multitude; they came up and encamped in Michmash, to the east of Beth-a'ven.
[6] When the men of Israel saw that they were in straits (for the people were hard pressed), the people hid themselves in caves and in holes and in rocks and in tombs and in cisterns,
[7] or crossed the fords of the Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. Saul was still at Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling.
[8]He waited seven days, the time appointed by Samuel; but Samuel did not come to Gilgal, and the people were scattering from him.
[9] So Saul said, "Bring the burnt offering here to me, and the peace offerings." And he offered the burnt offering.
[10] As soon as he had finished offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him and salute him.
[11] Samuel said, "What have you done?" And Saul said, "When I saw that the people were scattering from me, and that you did not come within the days appointed, and that the Philistines had mustered at Michmash,
[12] I said, `Now the Philistines will come down upon me at Gilgal, and I have not entreated the favor of the LORD'; so I forced myself, and offered the burnt offering."
[13] And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which he commanded you; for now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel for ever.
[14] But now your kingdom shall not continue; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart; and the LORD has appointed him to be prince over his people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you."
[15] And Samuel arose, and went up from Gilgal to Gib'e-ah of Benjamin. And Saul numbered the people who were present with him, about six hundred men.

1 Samuel 13:5-15

So Yahweh rejects Saul because he offered him a sacrifice. Am I getting this right?

[giblets]

[1]When he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
[2] And Saul took him that day, and would not let him return to his father's house.
[3] Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul.
[4] And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his girdle.

1 Samuel 18:1-4

That sounds kind of gay

[Berzerker]

AlB had a good point, God punished Moses and his people for violating one of the commandments that had not been received yet

a belief in collective guilt plagues the Bible, how can we judge that moral?

[Al B. Sure!]

AlB had a good point, God punished Moses and his people for violating one of the commandments that had not been received yet

a belief in collective guilt plagues the Bible, how can we judge that moral?

Correction... God punished those who violated one of the commandments that had not been received yet by having those who were true (the Levites) slaughter everyone THEN punished those who were true (including Moses who was dutifully all the way up on the mountain with God) by making them wander the desert for 40 years.

It's retroactive punishment enforced through the killing of the sinners by the hands of the righteous then punishment of the righteous.


Like I said, I have yet to hear a Christian actually agree with God there and I note that Imran and Jon Miller have both skirted the issue as many times as I've brought it up.

[giblets]

AlB had a good point, God punished Moses and his people for violating one of the commandments that had not been received yet

a belief in collective guilt plagues the Bible, how can we judge that moral?

Sounds like ex post facto legislation.

[giblets]

Is 40 God's favorite number or something?

[Al B. Sure!]

Is 40 God's favorite number or something?

It was an ancient way of expressing a long time.

Forty Years of Probation by Trial

Israel in the wilderness, Deuteronomy 8:2-5; Psalm 95:10; Acts 13:18
(the third 40 of Moses' life, 120 years).

Israel from the crucifixion to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Forty Years of Probation by Prosperity in Deliverance and Rest

under Othniel, Judges 3:11,

under Barak, Judges 5:31,

under Gideon, Judges 8:28.

Forty Years of Probation by Prosperity in Enlarged Dominion

under David, 2Samuel 5:4,

under Solomon, 1 Kings 11:42,

under Jeroboam II. See 2 Kings 12:17,18, 13:3,5,7,22,25, 14:12-14,23,28,

under Jehoash, 2 Kings 12:1,

under Joash, 2Chronicles 24:1.

Forty Years of Probation by Humiliation and Servitude

Israel under the Philistines, Judges 13:1.

Israel in the time of Eli, 1Samuel 4:18.

Israel under Saul, Acts 13:21.

Forty Years of Probation by Waiting

Moses in Egypt, Acts 7:23.

Moses in Midian, Acts 7:30

Forty Days

There are eight of such great periods on the surface of the Bible:

Forty days Moses was in the mount, Exodus 24:18; and to receive the Law, Exodus 24:18.

Forty days Moses was in the mount after the sin of the Golden Calf, Deuteronomy 9:18,25.

Forty days of the spies, issuing in the penal sentence of the 40 years, Numbers 13:26, 14:34.

Forty days of Elijah in Horeb, 1 Kings 19:8.

Forty days of Jonah and Nineveh, Jonah 3:4.

Forty days Ezekiel lay on his right side to symbolize the 40 years of Judah's transgression.*

Forty days Jesus was tempted of the Devil, Matthew 4:2.

Forty days Jesus was seen of His disciples, speaking of things pertaining to God's kingdom, Acts 1:2.

[giblets]

Maybe 40 is the number the authors liked to use whenever they didn't know the real number.

[Al B. Sure!]

Maybe 40 is the number the authors liked to use whenever they didn't know the real number.

Like I said... "it was an ancient way of expressing a long time". Stop being a ****ing *******.