Lessons from the Bible

[Al B. Sure!]

Or before that... God hardens the Pharaoh's heart. What is that about? Everytime the Pharaoh is about to give in to Moses to keep the Egyptian people from suffering further, God hardens his heart. Really, God?

God really enjoys human suffering (and apparently, doesn't value free will).

[giblets]

How does it feel to get PWNed, gribbler?

There isn't any indication that Yahweh objected to this practice. In fact I pointed out that the laws Yahweh gives to the Israelites allow men to take virgins by force, as long as the woman's father receives compensation. The story is a reflection of the author's complete lack of concern for what the woman thinks. I don't see much divine inspiration there! Does Yahweh think it's acceptable to treat women as property? The message in the story seems to be that not violating oaths is important.

[Felch]

Or before that... God hardens the Pharaoh's heart. What is that about? Everytime the Pharaoh is about to give in to Moses to keep the Egyptian people from suffering further, God hardens his heart. Really, God?

God really enjoys human suffering (and apparently, doesn't value free will).

I was taught, as a Catholic, that the Old Testament is written with an incomplete understanding of God. The New Testament has a more lenient portrayal, because the people writing it have a better understanding of God's will. It's still not perfect, since human beings aren't perfect, but it's better than the old understanding.

[giblets]

[19] And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain, because they had chariots of iron.

Judges 1:19

Seems like Yahweh wasn't conceived as some sort of omnipotent master of the universe when this was written. I mean, iron chariots can stop him?

[Jon Miller]

Have you read the old testament gribber?

I don't mean looking for verses to complain about, I mean read it seeking to understand. Read the stories. See what the sentences were referring to.

Remember, the Bible was written from the POV of humans.

Over 99.999% of the Bible sentences are entirely worthless by themselves. Just like in any other story.

JM

[Jon Miller]

There isn't any indication that Yahweh objected to this practice. In fact I pointed out that the laws Yahweh gives to the Israelites allow men to take virgins by force, as long as the woman's father receives compensation. The story is a reflection of the author's complete lack of concern for what the woman thinks. I don't see much divine inspiration there! Does Yahweh think it's acceptable to treat women as property? The message in the story seems to be that not violating oaths is important.

The real issue is how pro-woman that is compared to the customs of the time.

At the time, women who were forced were generally considered worthless and were left without husband/etc. In a society where women depended on men and their children to care for them, that would be a atrocious.

If the father was gifted, then that serves as a dowry for his daughter (in a way) and he can care for her if she is unable to marry.

And it is completely obvious in the story that even the old testament author understood that this was not right or correct behavior. That this was every man doing what was right in their own sight, not in God's sight. Which is wrong, as one of the core messages of every story in the Bible.

So quit looking for a fight and learn. Or if you want to keep looking for a fight, go ahead. But anyone who has sense will ignore you.

JM

[giblets]

I'm guessing you think that treating it like mythology instead of trying to rationalize all of the barbaric cruelty is a no-no?

[Al B. Sure!]

[19] And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain, because they had chariots of iron.

Judges 1:19

Seems like Yahweh wasn't conceived as some sort of omnipotent master of the universe when this was written. I mean, iron chariots can stop him?

That 'he' is with respect to the Kingdom of Judah personified as a he, not to God.

Really, is this a reverse troll? You're doing it all wrong.

[giblets]

The real issue is how pro-woman that is compared to the customs of the time.

At the time, women who were forced were generally considered worthless and were left without husband/etc. In a society where women depended on men and their children to care for them, that would be a atrocious.

If the father was gifted, then that serves as a dowry for his daughter (in a way) and he can care for her if she is unable to marry.

And it is completely obvious in the story that even the old testament author understood that this was not right or correct behavior. That this was every man doing what was right in their own sight, not in God's sight. Which is wrong, as one of the core messages of every story in the Bible.

So quit looking for a fight and learn. Or if you want to keep looking for a fight, go ahead. But anyone who has sense will ignore you.

JM

I'm not looking for a fight. I'm discussing bizarre iron age belief systems.

But I like your interpretation. Yahweh, the all-powerful god, really does think women are people, but he could only accomplish small, incremental changes in attitudes.

[Al B. Sure!]

gribbler, what you should be pointing out is when God ordered people killed. Notice Jon Miller has said nothing about the Golden Calf incident or the Pharaoh's heart being hardened causing the plagues.

I have yet to see a Christian who stands by what God ordered the Levites to do following the Golden Calf.

[giblets]

That 'he' is with respect to the Kingdom of Judah personified as a he, not to God.

Really, is this a reverse troll? You're doing it all wrong.

Yes, God was with Judah and Judah was stopped with iron chariots. That would seem to suggest iron chariots are more powerful.

[giblets]

gribbler, what you should be pointing out is when God ordered people killed. Notice Jon Miller has said nothing about the Golden Calf incident or the Pharaoh's heart being hardened causing the plagues.

I have yet to see a Christian who stands by what God ordered the Levites to do following the Golden Calf.

Nope, I should be pointing out the collective punishment of all Egyptians for what the Pharoah did. I'm guessing the author of Exodus (or that part of Exodus, anyway) believed in guilt by association.

[Al B. Sure!]

Nope, I should be pointing out the collective punishment of all Egyptians for what the Pharoah did. I'm guessing the author of Exodus (or that part of Exodus, anyway) believed in guilt by association.

Well yeah. Just like where the Levites slaughtered everyone after the Golden Calf and then those few who didn't worship the calf were punished with 40 years in the desert.


Then there's the whole "sins of the fathers" thing, original sin, etc.

God is all about punishing by association.

[MrFun]

But I like your interpretation. Yahweh, the all-powerful god, really does think women are people, but he could only accomplish small, incremental changes in attitudes.

God cannot force humans to change their attitude about anything, because He has given us free will.

[Al B. Sure!]

God cannot force humans to change their attitude about anything, because He has given us free will.

Umm... yes he can. He hardened the Pharaoh's heart repeatedly.