West Philly abortion doc charged with eight counts of murder

[Arrian]

Abortion is a question of dueling rights (which is why you're wrong, Asher, about there being only 2 rational positions). The rights of the woman vs. the rights of the zygote/embryo/fetus. I don't believe that a zygote (note: that's the first 4 days) has the full rights of a human being and, therefore, the woman's rights trump. Ditto for an embryo (note: 4days to 8 weeks).

However, I believe a full-term fetus has the right to life, trumping the woman's right to kill it. The question, for me, is when, exactly, the developing fetus acquires enough rights to block the woman's right to have it killed.

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure where to draw that line. "Viability" has problems, because it's a fuzzy line that moves with technology. But I'm not sure there's a better option. 24 weeks looks like an effort at hitting that mark (though I would hope there is a carveout for the rare instances when the mother's health is in grave danger b/c of the pregnancy - hell, even if you think abortion is murder, there's a thing called justifiable homicide). It's better than banning abortion outright. It's also better, IMO, than allowing abortion all the way up to full-term (~38 weeks).

-Arrian

[Asher]

That's the problem according to asher.

The US' line is 16 weeks, no?

[Al B. Sure!]

The US' line is 16 weeks, no?

What? I said that the state of PA prohibits abortions after 24 weeks.

[Asher]

What is the actual, real difference between aborting as a zygote with a morning after pill and aborting at 24 weeks?

Either way there is never a baby born.

Hell, take it a step farther -- every time you use a condom you're preventing the potential birth. Is that not murder as well, if we're stretching the definition to include zygotes, fetuses, etc?

The take-away from using a condom, using a morning after pill, or getting an abortion is a potential child is not born into this world. The arbitrary line people like to draw with abortion dates (including morning after pills) is a religious or spiritual question, not one that should be legislated.

[Asher]

What? I said that the state of PA prohibits abortions after 24 weeks.

Doesn't matter to me. Arbitrary line is an arbitrary line. Just thought I read it was 16 somewhere.

[Al B. Sure!]

How hard is it to either not have sex if you are unable or unwilling to support a baby or to use the multitude of contraceptive products out there?

I mean really?

I said it before but I see no counter to it; to resort to abortion is inexcusable for anyone with half a brain and any sense of responsibility and foresight.

Explain, Asher.

[Asher]

How hard is it to either not have sex if you are unable to have a baby or to use the multitude of contraceptive products out there?

I mean really?

I said it before but I see no counter to it; to resort to abortion is inexcusable for anyone with half a brain and any sense of responsibility and foresight.

Explain, Asher.

I don't have to explain anything.

I believe in being responsible. I believe teens should have free access to condoms, I believe they should be taught far more with sex ed, I believe the whole subject should be de-tabooed so people can talk about it more openly. The religious right wants to keep condoms out of hands of kids and keep kids ignorant about sex and hush-hush about sex at all.

Ideally, abortions would be quite rare because the proper precautions are taken. The fact is, they're not all the time by all people. If you look at the demographics of the kids getting abortions, they tend not to be educated people with money to buy condoms.

That doesn't mean you should ban abortions because you think condoms never break, rape never happens, and sex isn't a natural compulsion most normal people find difficult to resist.

You'll note that abortion rates are actually falling in the USA. It's very likely a direct result of more sex ed.

[Al B. Sure!]

If you look at the demographics of the kids getting abortions, they tend not to be educated people with money to buy condoms.

A $500 abortion they can afford but 50 cent condoms are cost prohibitive?

And as of right now, in a state like PA, you can get an abortion legally up to 24 weeks. What prevented these women from getting their abortions before 6 months into their pregnancy?

[Hauldren Collider]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_98166275/



By all means, lets inject over 820,000 more children into this system every year.

Oh, so this makes it okay to kill them. Glad to see your heart is in the right place.

EDIT: And as JM said, most foster kids are from abusive parents. Adoption has much better success. We have large rates of international adoption, we could put some sort of tax preference on domestic adoption.

[Asher]

A $500 abortion they can afford but 50 cent condoms are cost prohibitive?

Do you think they planned on getting pregnant? If they knew they'd get pregnant from that sex, you can bet your ass they'd have used a condom properly.

You seem to think abortions aren't traumatic for women? They're something EVERYONE wants to avoid if they KNOW about it.

And as of right now, in a state like PA, you can get an abortion legally up to 24 weeks. What prevented these women from getting their abortions before 6 months into their pregnancy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States

Reasons for abortions
In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[28] Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:[29]
25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Other
According to a 1987 study that included specific data about late abortions (i.e. abortions “at 16 or more weeks' gestation”),[30] women reported that various reasons contributed to their having a late abortion:
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other.

[Hauldren Collider]

Funny.....
IMHO
I don't know why MEN think they have a say about abortion.

You say that as if men are the only ones opposed to it.

[Heraclitus]

When it was legalised in the early 70s, there was a commensurate precipitous drop in crime from the early 90s.

Correlation is not causation, people have extensively criticized the Freakanomics conclusion.

[DinoDoc]

The US' line is 16 weeks, no?

Given the fact that is the law nowhere in the US or anywhere under its dominion and no one in this thread has said that or even implied that, I would have to say that you need to learn to read.

[Hauldren Collider]

What is the actual, real difference between aborting as a zygote with a morning after pill and aborting at 24 weeks?

Either way there is never a baby born.

Hell, take it a step farther -- every time you use a condom you're preventing the potential birth. Is that not murder as well, if we're stretching the definition to include zygotes, fetuses, etc?

The take-away from using a condom, using a morning after pill, or getting an abortion is a potential child is not born into this world. The arbitrary line people like to draw with abortion dates (including morning after pills) is a religious or spiritual question, not one that should be legislated.

This is one of the reasons why I don't agree with life begins at conception (the other being that it doesn't explain identical twins). I think sensory perception is a much better way to define it. The definition will improve as we get a better understanding of pregnancy.

[Al B. Sure!]

71% didn't recognize they were pregnant? What the ****? Fine, that's at 16 weeks but if you don't know you're pregnant at 24 weeks (almost 6 freaking months), you're a ******.

2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy

That's the only legit excuse I can see for taking 6+ months to decide.