West Philly abortion doc charged with eight counts of murder

[MikeH]

There are cases where women have literally only put on a few pounds, which they put down to eating more than normal, and have had normal periods throughout the pregnancy. What would make them think they were pregnant?

Not everyone balloons up. You don't know what you are talking about. Quit.

[OzzyKP]

And what's the difference?

I think you seem to be missing Asher's point. He's asking what is the difference between using a morning after pill and having a 24 week abortion? You're potentially killing a viable baby either way. And what's the difference between either of those options and preventing fertilisation in the first place by using a condom?

And if you can answer all those, why is your view any more valid than anyone elses and why should the law be based around what you think, rather than what is the real cost and benefit to women, babies and society?

The fact is that if you ban abortions, they still happen illegally, at greater risk to women.

1. You didn't answer his questions.
2. What's the difference between a partial birth abortion and taking scissors to the skull of a newborn?
3. What's the difference between killing a newborn and a 1-year-old?

[OzzyKP]

Abortion is a question of dueling rights (which is why you're wrong, Asher, about there being only 2 rational positions). The rights of the woman vs. the rights of the zygote/embryo/fetus. I don't believe that a zygote (note: that's the first 4 days) has the full rights of a human being and, therefore, the woman's rights trump. Ditto for an embryo (note: 4days to 8 weeks).

However, I believe a full-term fetus has the right to life, trumping the woman's right to kill it. The question, for me, is when, exactly, the developing fetus acquires enough rights to block the woman's right to have it killed.

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure where to draw that line. "Viability" has problems, because it's a fuzzy line that moves with technology. But I'm not sure there's a better option. 24 weeks looks like an effort at hitting that mark (though I would hope there is a carveout for the rare instances when the mother's health is in grave danger b/c of the pregnancy - hell, even if you think abortion is murder, there's a thing called justifiable homicide). It's better than banning abortion outright. It's also better, IMO, than allowing abortion all the way up to full-term (~38 weeks).

-Arrian

An Apolyton thread with a sensible comment.

[Asher]

Given the fact that is the law nowhere in the US or anywhere under its dominion and no one in this thread has said that or even implied that, I would have to say that you need to learn to read.

I didn't read it in this thread -- perhaps you need to learn to read.

The confusion was late last night I read the wiki article I quoted to Alby, which mentioned US statistics with "late abortions" being defined as "after 16 weeks of gestation".

[Asher]

Oh, so this makes it okay to kill them.

Depends how you define killing.

Really, you are killing a potential child every time you use birth control. It depends how histrionic you want to be.

[MikeH]

1. I don't support partial birth abortions except in life threatening cases. 24 weeks is a perfectly reasonable limit. And also the UK legal maximum. Not allowed in the UK in any circumstances after 28 weeks, when theoretically viable
2. Nothing.
3. Nothing. (both these are classed as Murder here).

My point is only this:

Lots of people will have different views on this. The vast majority of people (in the UK at least) realise that legal abortion is generally better than the alternative, on that basis you have to draw a line. There is some medical basis for choosing 24 weeks as the cut off. So on the basis that it's always going to be arbitrary, let's just go with that.

It's weird that it's still an issue in the US, aside from tiny numbers of very niche groups it ceased to be an issue in the UK decades ago.

[Asher]

If it is not a human, why are abortions traumatic then? Or do you mean as traumatic as getting your gallbladder removed?

Because it's physically traumatic and it's a big life decision?

[DinoDoc]

I didn't read it in this thread -- perhaps you need to learn to read.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/1...=1#post5918455

[Asher]

One thing Asher is also missing is the elasticities. How many of that 840,000 abortions is from people who would otherwise have used a condom or the morning after pill if they knew they couldn't get an abortion? And how many could be switched to condoms or birth control or morning after if the government started promoting those things? I think you could make a huge dent in that number.

Oh, wow.

How many women do you honestly think don't use condoms because getting an abortion "ain't no thang"?

to you.

[Asher]

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/1...=1#post5918455

That comment was specific to PA, not nationwide. I was under the impression from the wiki article the night before that other states had earlier limits. Please read.

[Al B. Sure!]

That comment was specific to PA, not nationwide.

I didn't realize that the state of PA could just trump your supposed nationwide limit by a full 8 weeks

[Asher]

1. You didn't answer his questions.
2. What's the difference between a partial birth abortion and taking scissors to the skull of a newborn?

Birth

3. What's the difference between killing a newborn and a 1-year-old?

Nothing.

[DinoDoc]

I was under the impression from the wiki article the night before that other states had earlier limits. Please read.

We've already established that you are an idiot. There is no stricter limit. There can't be due to the Courts.

[Asher]

I didn't realize that the state of PA could just trump your supposed nationwide limit by a full 8 weeks

Huh?

I didn't mention a NATIONWIDE LIMIT. It is QUITE COMMON for different states to have different laws with different restrictions. Thus a comment about PA's restrictions need not apply to the entire nation.

[Hauldren Collider]

Oh, wow.

How many women do you honestly think don't use condoms because getting an abortion "ain't no thang"?

to you.

So you would deny that there are ANY elasticities involved and that number is ENTIRELY static because you don't think there is ANYONE on the margin? Really? Asher economics